ParkMan

Hi @Eagledad, Not quite. I'm a huge fan of boys being in charge. I think adults should generally stay out of the way. I think you misunderstand my motivation here. I'm not trying to blame anyone. I'm simply suggesting that there could very well be another way of looking at this situation. Some of the earlier comments in the thread led me to think that there's a perception among the troop adults that this is a binary issue. Cheers!

I agree that there has to be limits to compromise. I see a difference between acquiescing to the first challenge and learning from a pattern of behavior. A patrol getting frustrated was some scouts and telling them to go sleep with their dad is different than a new scout repeatedly sneaking out to sleep with his dad. It's our job as adult leaders to make those sort of calls. I'm not here to second guess the troop leaders. They know the details of the situation much better than I do. Sorry if it's taken the wrong way. Perhaps the leaders don't see it as forcing the scout, but at some point, repeatedly putting the Scout in the position where he feels his only recourse is to sneak out seems a bit strong to me. Maybe once of twice - sure. But 7 trips and two summer camps? I do get that folks guard the quality of their program. I tend to think about the long term in these kind of situations. Is it really worth making a big deal over this situation when it will almost certainly resolve itself over time. I cannot imagine that when this scout gets to 15 or 16 he'll really want to share a tent with dad. In the end, whether some kid tents with his dad for a year or two is nothing more than a footnote is a Scouts career.

Now you're getting silly. I'm not advocating family camping. I'm just saying sometimes you have to compromise.

I'm not looking to have a debate on the merits of camping and parental involvement. Of course camping with other Scouts is preferred. My point is simply that Scouting, like everything else with raising kids, is sometimes messy and doesn't fit our desired structure. We don't want to throw out our ideals at the first challenge, but sometimes you have to compromise for the longer term payoff. When I was a Scout, we attended a Camporee. There was a patrol competition involving splitting wood. I'd never used an axe in my life. The Scoutmaster insisted that I do it. Said it would be good for me. It was awful. I was embarrassed and mortified because I had no idea what I was doing. I never competed in a patrol competition again.

Then have him setup the tent that he shares with his dad. Problem solved. Just seems to me that trying to force him to tent with other Scouts isn't working and is only making everyone frustrated.

Hi @Eagle94-A1, Thanks a lot for the description of what's going on. You articulate it very nicely. First - one Scouter to another - you've got my support. At the end of the day, you've got to run the program that makes sense for your troop. It definitely sounds like the father is less than respectful in how he's dealing with you guys. It's most certainly not cool that he's running off to hotels and not telling anyone. That alone would be a reason for me to let the family leave without an attempt to change their minds. If I take the Scout's situation at face value - I'm less concerned about what he's doing. Yes - without doubt, I'd like him to tent with his fellow Scouts. But, if you guys have honestly tried that and met resistance from him, I wouldn't be concerned about making an accommodation. Let me think through what you list above. I offer this simply as food for thought. Sounds like a pretty active Scout to me. 7 campouts and 2 summer camps. Nice. I think I'd have cried uncle after the second attempt. If the kid is sneaking out to be with his family, what is the benefit by trying to force him that much? The Scout doesn't like it, the family doesn't like it, you all are frustrated. So he doesn't tent with another Scout - I can think of worse things. Seems to me that the Dad just doesn't agree with you guys. He and their family just see this differently. What didn't he earn? The requirements are: Tenderfoot: 1b. Spend at least one night on a patrol or troop campout. Sleep in a tent you have helped pitch. Second Class: 1a. Since joining Boy Scouts, participate in five separate troop/patrol activities, at least three of which must be held outdoors. Of the outdoor activities, at least two must include overnight camping. These activities do not include troop or patrol meetings. On campouts, spend the night in a tent that you pitch or other structure that you help erect, such as a lean-to, snow cave, or tepee. First Class: 1a. Since joining Boy Scouts, participate in 10 separate troop/patrol activities, at least six of which must be held outdoors. Of the outdoor activities, at least three must include overnight camping. These activities do not include troop or patrol meetings. On campouts, spend the night in a tent that you pitch or other structure that you help erect, such as a lean-to, snow cave, or tepee. The patrol or troop campout is the event, not the act of sharing a tent with another scout. All this scout has to do is sleep outdoors in the tent he pitched. As long as he does that, he's completed the requirement. There's nothing about tenting with other Scouts in the requirement. We've had kids sleep in their own tent from time to time. Most of our older scouts sleep in their own 2 person tent. To me, this is the real issue caused by the family. This is inexcusable.

I'm playing a little devil's advocate here - so please bear with me... Looking at it differently. Here we have a Scout who is clearly not interested in sleeping in a tent without his father (parents?). I'm sure this is largely a result of how the parents are raising him. Our "big purpose" as Scouters is to develop these young adults. The "game" we play to accomplish that is Scouting. We deal with all kinds of mistakes from Scouts because we're going after the big goal of developing these kids. If Scouts can't make mistakes in Scouting, then where? Here you all know this kid has an issue with tenting. So, after you give it the good college try, then perhaps it's worth giving the kid a year or two to mature and be ready for it. You could continue to make it a big issue, tick off the parents, and get them to go to another troop. Or, give it some time, let the kid mature, and move past it. I tend to think long term about these kind of things. What is the long term impact to this kid because of these decisions. What is the long term impact to the troop because of these decisions. Perhaps with that in mind, then yes - pushing the family so much that they leave the troop might be the right thing. Me, I think I'd let it ride for a year.

Just wondering though... What's the benefit to the Scout by so angering the family that they leave? Is getting the Scout go tent with other Scouts an issue important enough to have a separation over?

I always thought they were separate events too. I'd have Scouts receive the AOL as soon as they earned it. The crossover was at a fixed time later in the year. I just read the crossover script. It was a bit hokey for me, but that's just my style. But, I think you still have them attend and conduct it. In my mind, the OA are still the group of senior, distinguished scouts - an impressive bunch. They would seem the best group to encourage Scouts when they cross over.

If we're honest - training really isn't necessary at all. Scout troops will continue to exist and kids will get the experience of being a Scout. We have training for anything to provide the opportunity to learn so that we can perhaps do a better job at what we do. Training doesn't guarantee that. Hopefully it does give you a few tools you can use. Personally, I think trainong is a good thing. Howevet, if someone isn't open to training or is confident enough in their own abilities already, then they shouldn't go. I find the negative Wood Badge comments curious. Yes, I agree - if attending the class is unlikely to lead to you learning something new- then don't go. However, I have not run into anyone who has taken the course and criticizes someone else for not going. Honestly, I hear way more negative comments directed towards Wood Badge and those who take it than anything else. Five years after my original posts here, I still think Wood Badge is a great course and encourage Cub leaders to attend. I learned a lot as a new leader taking it and remember the lessons frequently. But, I'm someone who sees a course like Wood Badge as a way to become a stronger Scouter.

FWIW We see all kinds of mistakes in Scouting - that's part of why we have Scouting. Usually we're seeing mistakes being a Scout, or being a Camper, or whatever outdoor skill is involved. Sometimes kids make mistakes at being a person. For whatever reason, a Scout starts going off the rails in terms of how he treats others. These kind of things can end up being really positive for the bully too. So, while it's human nature to be apprehensive about dealing with these kinds of issues, I'd be less confrontational and look at is as teaching yet another lesson to the Scout involved. This might be a lesson that the Scout carries with him for years, if not the rest of his life.

The first thing I'd do is have a discussion about the concerns among the core leadership team - CC, SM (I think you said the position is in transition), key ASMs, etc. Everyone should get on the same page that there is a concern and should share what they know. After that, I'd do 3 three things: 1) talk with the scout(s) who may have been bullied. As what happened and listen. 2) talk with the scout that has been accused. Talk about bullying and that some people think he's being a bully. Discuss what has happened to date and what he thinks he has done. See if he thinks he's a bully. But, make clear that under no circumstances is bullying condoned.. 3) talk with the Scout's parents. They are your partners in this, talk to them that way. Let them know that concerns have been raised and that you're digging into them. As I see it, our job as Scout leaders is to create an environment where bullying does not occur. But, when it does occur, then we need to figure out what happened and work with the kids involved so that it stops. So, I think that how one handles bullying is just as important as trying to prevent it in the first place. I'm inclined to treat a first offense as a learning process for the scout involved. Of course, if the bullying was particularly awful or was harmful, there are limits to treating it as a learning experience. But the scout needs to know - there is no second conversation.

I looked around your troop website and cannot seem to find a time for the meeting. Often they list this on the troop website, but they didn't here. Sorry.

Good. However, from what you just described sounds like district level meetings. A roundtable is a training meeting for district leaders. They fellows you mention are district level people. A district is the city/county level organizational grouping within Scouting. There's usually about 50 troops and packs in a single district. You need to find the Troop Committee meeting. This is the leadership meeting for just your troop. It's different. Feel free to PM me your troop number and I'll see if I can find it for you. It seems counter-intuitive, but individual troops do not report to the district level people. The way the BSA is setup, a single troop is an autonomous entity. District staff are usually quite well connected in Scouting, but they don't hold much too sway over a given troop.

Hi @Mich08212, I'm a Troop Committee Chair and have been for a while. Why not just go to the next committee meeting and ask what's up? They are all generally public meetings. If someone came to ours and had a question like this, we'd take the time to answer.

I'm terribly sorry to hear about the frustration this has brought yoh. You've brought a lot to this forum. If this ends up being it - I wish you the very best.

Barry, You don't know me. I did not start name calling. I think you started the self righteousness comments towards me. I've bent over backwards to make my point without criticizing anyone's beliefs. I simply said that I am concerned that given the consistent comments in this discussion about transgender kids not being normal it would become spill over into similar comments to this kids themselves. Is that such a stretch when we had a post from one of our members who didn't even want to even be in the same summer camp as transgender kids? In other places, I'd say that a number of the posts use "charged words" - language which is itself inflammatory. I am far from a progressive liberal. I've been a registered Republican all my life, generally vote conservative, listen to Fox news, frustrate my much more liberal family. Yet, I will admit that I struggle with this forum. I appreciate that we have this place to share experiences, but I find there is a very conservative tone that is very negative about these kinds of issues. If we were debating politics, I would take a very different tone. But, so many of these topics are about excluding groups of people from Scouting. Don't let in gays or transgender people - that's basically what we're talking about. I only spend my time on it here because this isn't a local forum. You want to sit around with your local friends and make comments about kids in Scouting - fine. But, this is a national forum. It is not local. So, please don't be surprised when people who live these issues make a counterpoint.

Many kids who go through this do not change their biology. For them, they do not need to. They already feel that they are the other gender and so physical steps are not necessary. But, yes, some do. Again - all I'm asking is that we be mindful of the rhetoric around the Scouts - all the Scouts. You may not have yet met a transgender kid, but it is coming. These kids have hard enough life as it is. @Hedgehog's crew sounds like a great group. If you are some day faced with these kinds of decisions please simply do the same.

I met the first kid I knew who was coming to terms with with gender identity questions about 5 years ago. The kid has not transitioned, but was clearly trying to figure things out. In the back of my mind I thought - it has to be easier if the parent stops this. Over time I got to know the kid and realized he was like every other kid - but his struggle was gender identity. About two years ago I found out that a kid that I have known for his whole life was going to counseling for gender identity issues. I've known this kid all his life. He's a wonderful kid - has the same struggles as others- school, friends, parents, etc. He has the added challenge of dealing with his gender identity. He's been in weekly counselling since then. His parents struggled with it and pushed back pretty hard. They talked to counsellor after counsellor. They eventually figured out that they needed to simply support him. What I've come to learn is that transgender kids are kids first. They want to be accepted and loved - it's just a whole lot harder for them because to them being normal means being accepted as having a gender they were not born with.

It's covered in the interview. He makes it pretty clear it is up to the CO.

It's the tone of the way people refer to it here. Such as: On the surface it seems innocuous enough. But, it leads me to be concerned that folks will treat transgender kids as an oddity or even . This topic is full of comments about how they don't think transgender kids are "normal". I'm an optimist, bu t it's hard to trust that all the folks who commented here are going to warmly embrace a transgender scout in their troops.

My understanding is that each troop is to work with the scouts parent and the BSA professional staff to develop the processes that makes sense for that youth and the other Scouts. It could include sharing tents if everyone felt it was appropriate. I saw a doc from one of the councils with details - but cannot seem to find it now.

I mean this in the nicest way possible - but it does not matter to me what your personal beliefs are on this topic. My point is that as Scouters we need to leave our personal feelings on this topic at home. If a transgender kid shows up in your troop you need to accept him and support his involvement in Scouting. The scout should never know that you disagree with the guidance of his family (and probably a healthy number of professionals) on his gender identity. Again - it's is not our place as Scouters to do discourage Scouts who are transgender. I'm making this point because it would be wrong for me to leave the impression that it's okay for Scouters to be offensive to transgender Scouts. Of course there is an exception is for units where the CO objects. But - that's not what we're talking about here.

In my experience no parent wants the harder life the being transgender brings. If you really don't believe that a kid is transgender, then report it as abuse.

I know two transgender youth. I am not an expert of the topic, but understand it well enough to know where we need to start advocating on their behalf. Yes - these boys face a difficult life. The last thing they need is a bunch of Scout leaders trying to tell them they are not normal. My point was - and continues to be - that you need to leave these beliefs at home. These kids need a little normalcy and the best thing you can do for them is to help them get it.