ParkMan

We seem to have lots of these posts. Some parent showed up at a troop, didn't understand Scouting, took over, and ruined it all. Sometimes folks try to associate that with women - but not always. The common thread I see in these is a troop that can't seem to figure out how to rally around a defined program and channel adult energy accordingly. It has nothing to do with male vs. female. At the unit level, the failing is in understanding that organizing adult energy and having a defined culture is something you have to work at. At a national level, I'd argue that we've missed the boat on preparing adults to lead programs. We focus on so much on SM training around Scout skills that we've neglected those skills you need to deploy a program.

Brilliantly said!

That's what I see too. Whether it's the number of packs recruiting girls, the discussions in the troop committee, or discussions in the district committee, the outward indications are that most people in my area are in support of it.

I'd just have her meet with the boys and call it a day. I would just make her a member of the boys den - no need for the technicality of being in her own den. Packs don't report den assignments to anyone. So putting her in her own den, but having her meet with the boys is a distinction without a difference. Going forward push for greater numbers in recruiting and work towards the goal of a separate girl and boy dens.

It's just the BSA sending the message that they're serious about making this work. At the onset of the program, they're talking a lot about it, hyping it up, working to share the enthusiasm. They want to see this be successful. If they didn't do this, they wouldn't be doing their jobs. In a few months, the majority of the articles will be back to typical content.

The answer is simple. Because Johnny asked them to. The message to the Scouts isn't about gender identity. The message is about supporting their friend and fellow Scout. Respectfully - I think many are overthinking this. This is simply a question about how do we as Scouters support youth who are going through their own struggles about who they are as young adults. For this young person it was gender identity, but it could just as easily have been a number of others things.

Yes - calling the parents is a perfectly fine thing to do. A Scouter should never feel he is keeping a secret from a parent.

These kids have a very emotionally tough path they are on. Just like we would with any Scout on a tough personal trail, we support them. If a Scout comes to us and says he is neither girl nor boy and wants to be called by a new name, then I think as a Scouter, you'd don't miss a beat or hesitate and simply say "great, then we'll call you by that name."

From what I hear near me, there will be plenty of troops willing to start paper units for girls. If anything, I suspect there will be more interested troops than girls.

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate it. Let me bring this back to the topic of preparing for girls in Scouting. I know we're going to have troops that will look to do things their own way in regards to membership rules. My point continues to be that I'd rather see troops be upfront and organized about pushing the boundaries breaking the rules. For example, I'd rather see a troop be upfront and try to go co-ed than to simply skirt the rules by having a paper troop for girls. That's not to say that I think troops should be rude or openly hostile towards the council and national leadership. I believe that as adult leaders, how we conduct ourselves when we disagree is as valuable lesson for the Scouts in our troops. For example, the Scoutmaster of our troop, and several of the ASMs, are openly critical and hostile towards council decisions and leadership. Their actions bother me immensely. I would much rather see adults who disagree, do so openly and professionally, than simply criticize but still follow the rules. This has come up on our troop. The Scoutmaster keeps saying "if girls want to join, we'll just create a fake troop and let them join." I think that's wrong. If we really intend to run a co-ed troop, then by golly, let's be honest we're running a co-ed troop. if the DE stops by and says "no", then we say thank you and register the Scouts anyways. If the council still says no, then OK, we create a paper troop, but we be upfront with everyone that this is exactly what we're doing. At the end of thy day, organization in Scouting is an inverted pyramid. The council and national are here to provide the program to the units so we can bring Scouting to youth. I'm fine with extending this concept to other issues in Scouting (as long as safety is not compromised) - but since that's not the topic of the thread, I'll leave that comment there.

Sure. I've decided that's perfectly fine for them to have thoguhtful, organized, dissent. I'd much rather have some people breaking BSA rules in a safe, organized way. What I'm suggesting is really not different from groups all over the country who organize protests and directly lobby people in positions of authority. Let's be realistic too. This troop publicly pushing the edge is way more likely to result in some sort of change than a strongly worded letter to you SE or national. It's great to say - "you should make your case through official channels." But remember, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Finally - why do you really care if someone disobey's national. I don't report to BSA national and other than accepting my $25 and registration, they're not in a position of authority over me. Yes, I think that we should try to follow the program as best we can. Yes, the health and safety guidelines in the G2SS provide me some guidance and cover in case something happens. But, if we have a specific conscientious objection, we should make that objection heard, known, and seen. Isn't that part of being a good leader? If the BSA knows what this troop is doing and looks the other way, that's on national.

So, I'm reminded that no matter what the deadline, there will always be people who push it. If national said "you can finish you tenure as an adult". Someone will start their 6 months of tenure the day after their 18th birthday. There would then be an article about the great Scout who had to complete his tenure as an adult, but was denied the rank. If you keep saying "we'll make an exception", then it will never end. It stinks, but it's reality.

I went to an engeering school like RPI. I am an engineer today. There is a lot if truth to this.

Yes - this. Scouting is about adventure. It's not a arts and crafts club. Sure, some are needed to support the adventure, but they don't replace it. My son's bear den leader was the grandfather of one of the boys. He held the program to a really high standard. Not in terms of expectation from the boys, but in terms of really digging into the adventure. I always remember how he taught the boys about knife safety. It took us 3 meetings each about 90 minutes. He brought in every knife imaginable. He showed the boys about knives meant for cleaning deer, knives meant for breaking bones in animals, knives meant for surgery. We had a whole meeting just on how to sharpen a knife and all the different kinds of sharpening stones. The other bear den in our pack spent one meeting and spent it all whittling soap. We had a pack camping trip. The den leader spent weeks going over how to camp cook. My son, who hadn't cooked in his life LOVED it. When we got to the camping trip, my son's den was cooking their own meals. The other den - I think the boys might have flipped pancakes. Crafts - why would we do that? There were only 25 den meetings and a lot to cover. I relate tbe experience because he taught me that: 1) time is precious 2) there is wonder all around us. We just have to embrace it. My recommendation: instead of stepping back, embrace the wonder. Spend 3 weeks teaching knife safety.

Hi @Saltface & @walk in the woods, Thanks for the thoughts. I do get your points here. My personal feelings on the issue don't impact my perspective here. Truth be told, I really dislike it when Scout leaders freelance on the rules in Scouting. The Scoutmaster of my son's troop does that too much for my liking. In fact, I'm stepping down as CC because I'm just tired of fighting with Scouters who want to apply only the rules that suit their needs. Yet, I see a place for organized dissent. I get the point that Scouts should follow rules, and I really do agree. But, as long as it's done safely, I see a valid role for adults to advocate for causes that are important to their communities. I saw in the earlier posts such an organized dissent. We can certainly disagree on whether it's appropriate for a troop to openly lobby for a rules change by openly challenging the BSA. I respect your perspectives here. All the best.

Thanks @qwazse! I appreciate the words and encouragement. In our Cub Scout pack we did something similar. As a result, one of the largest GSUSA troops in our area grew out of that. My daughter's first experience in Girl Scouting was in that troop. They really were a separate GSUSA troop and BSA pack. However, it reinforced for me that kids are kids. Thank you!

I'm going to gather you really don't think Laser Tag, squirt guns, and paintball is the issue, but over regulation of youth. Then yes, send a letter to your DE, SE, and national telling them that the rules in the G2SS are wrong and you are planning a Laser Tag, squirt gun, and paintball event. Feel free to invite other troops and units to attend. Tell your parents why you think the G2SS is wrong and that you are planning this event in open defiance of it. Explain to your CO about your cause and added liability they may assume and get their support for it. So yes, if you want to really do that, then do it. That's the basis of my agreement above - this unit is thought out, organized about their actions, and seemingly very open about it. If there are consequences the BSA wants to pursue, they will bear them.

. Not sure how I get a downvote for that. As I said - seemed like the troop was making a thought out attempt to advocate for their cause. It's not a bunch of folks just winging it. Further, they did it in full visibility to the participants and council. You or I may not agree with their cause- but if someone is going to practice the Scout version of civil disobedience, this seems the way to do it. Just my .02

Thanks - sounds like a fantastic course. I enjoyed mine, but it does make me wish I could attend such a high caliber course!

I agree. Trying to force the COR isn't a winning strategy. If it's that bad, I'd do: - find adults to volunteer to take on committee roles - advancement chair, activities chair, membership chair, etc. Get them to officially take those roles. - once they have those roles, have them meet monthly with the CC. If the CC doesn't call a meeting, just have them do their job anyways. A committee meeting is really just a place for committee members to provide reports and status. If you don't have a meeting these folks can still do their jobs.

Must be 9,995 of the outside my district. Of course, that's 200 per state - so maybe that matches what I'm seeing.

I'm generally pretty opposed to troops freelancing on the rules. There are too many troops who decide to ignore key program rules because they are confident they know better. I.e. "patrols? Nah, we don't need those." This seems to be different to me. What I see here is a faithful (I hope) deployment of the program with a reasoned exception for the inclusion of girls - which is coming anyways. It is troops like this that will help push national in the direction of co-ed troops. Someone has to push the issue. Sounds like this is the kind of place to do it. They may succeed or they may fail- but I'm okay that they are trying.

Maybe. I think the troop needs to be talking with the institutional head of the church- the pastor. You might want the church to say - Scouting is good, please meet here all you want. But, that's a pretty big ask. The church pays for the facilities and the utilities. It is supported by the donations of its members and what it can augment. If encourage the troop to think about the value it brings to the church beyond free labor - such as providing programming to the churches members or bringing new members to the church. That's a conversation for the pastor - not the finance chair. Good luck!

There's no interest yet in our area. We've discussed it as an adult team and are supportive of a linked troop. We're just set an expectation that we need a few core adults as well as girls who are interested to materialize. But, when that happens we'll do it.

Just curious what you mean here. What are you doing to get ready for family scouting? Thanks!