ParkMan

An unfortunate reality I learned about Scouting is that lots of stuff falls through the cracks. The BSA systems for stuff like this are all paperwork driven. The folks who submit the forms are volunteers, the folks who sign them are volunteers, the folks who send them to the council are volunteers, and the folks who process them are ridiculously underpaid staff. I think many of the folks with rows of them have simply learned the system. They walk the paperwork through the signatures and drop it off personally. They make sure it gets done. It's unfortunate that this is what it takes sometimes. But I like our DE and council staff and recognize that they are genuinely trying - so I really don't mind dealing with stuff like this.

Sorry - was away for a few hours. This topic is moving fast. There are so many ways to handle this one. Here's a few: be up front with the Scout. Tell him/her that this requirement is coming and that they will not be able to advance past it. His/her choice if they still want to join. be ridiculously literal. recognize that in the Scouts mind there is no god and so that he has completed his duty to god by doing nothing. Focus on the remaining parts of the Scout law. project a bit. Discuss the concept of God and what it means to do your duty to God. Have a discussion around how he is living his life in a way that would mirror what those with a belief in God would do. interpret a bit. substitute "greater good" for God. Have him tell how he has done his duty to the greater good.

Gotta admit - this has been exactly my experience too. Respect and embrace their experience and they are wonderful additions to your program.

Whoa. I didn't see anything here that said the old guard members in this instance did not allow in new blood. Perhaps I should have inferred that, but I didn't. Scouting experience is a wonderful thing. It provide continuity and experience to the leadership team. Our troop has a very rich mix of parents and experienced Scouters whose kids have long since left the program. I cannot begin to tell you how much we've benefited from having those 10+ year veterans in our leadership team. We have one leader who has been taking the Scouts to summer camp for over 20 years. That leader is fantastic with the Scouts. I shudder to think of the loss to our scouts if we asked every leader who's kids are done in Scouting is made to feel they need to move on. How awful. Of course a troop wants a balanced leadership team. Having just old guard with no current parents makes no sense. That's a way to get a stale leadership team. The flip side is equally wrong. Having just current parents in the troop limits your ability to draw on experience. End of the day, you want a mix. This is where Committee Chairs and Scoutmasters earn their stripes. The good ones know how to leverage different backgrounds to make things happen. This is exactly why we have these folks - to organize and guide our adult leaders.

Understood - but my point holds. For the sake of discussion, say our troop is very devout. If a Scout who does not believe wants to join us and participate fully in our troop, why not? He can stand there and absorb all kinds of religious goodness. He may even convert in the process. Wouldn't we want that? If it's good enough for my church, why not my troop?

When someone walks into our church on Sunday morning we don't ask if he's a believer, we say "we're glad you're here." When a youth joins our youth group we don't ask if he's a believer, we say "thanks for joining us." I get that we're worried about Scouts and oaths things, but isn't it really about helping youth build character? If we can keep our existing program and open the door so that more Scouts experience our program that's got to be a good thing.

Gotcha. What I think hangs up many, and to be honest myself included, is why we presume the program needs to stop being a character development program and turn into an after school outdoor program if we provide a path for youth who don't believe in God? From replies in this topic, it seems that for many units, faith and religion is already limited to grace before meals and a handful of requirements along the way. So, say we allow some Scouts into the program who don't believe in god. Does that really have to mean we stop being a character development program? Maybe put a little different. For some scouts we go from "develop good character because it's was God wants" to "develop good character because it's the right thing to do." Does that really mean our program is now radically different?

I really like @HashTagScouts idea of a real, solid, challenging camping weekend leveraging Scout camping skills. Be a real example of Scout camping at it's best. Personally I think it would be great to do it somewhere that's not car camping.

i think we're generally on the same page then. I'd have no problem if a troop said we'd like our leaders to be people of faith. Me I'd probably go with a local option approach - allow the CO to decide if faith is required.

Good point. As a Scout, I was motivated to advance quickly also to be a leader. I recall hitting a point about 18 months in where I was Star and needed only merit badges to advance. Find a MBC was a royal pain and I lost interest there. I wanted to be a leader, but got stuck with stuff like Chaplain's Aide and Quartermaster. I had no Idea how to make that into anything fun. Between the two of those, I got very dis-enchanted. Leaders tried to get me to come around but I lost hope. I ended up being a den chief for the next 18 months and pretty much never going to troop meetings. I never advanced again. By about 15 I was done. I don't doubt that there's lot to motivate a Scout through First class. But, it feels like after that it's a lot less clear what the goal is. Yeah some kids do really well at that point - perhaps the natural leaders who love Scouting stuff. But, for many, it's not really clear what the objective is. I think that's why we start to see lots of hanging around at troop meetings, Scouts who don't want to lead anything, and Scouts who are not interested in the OA. This is the question I keep coming back to when we talk program for older Scouts. This is where I think the OA could be an answer, but not if it's simply a service & camporee prep club with a monthly meeting. This is where I think "let's get these guys doing something really challenging."

I see the distinction. You're thinking adults, I'm thinking youth. If you view the BSA as a faith based organization, I can see why you wouldn't want an adult who does not believe in god to be a leader. Makes sense. I see youth members as being different. I don't see a harm in having non-religious kids see people say grace or have a discussion on faith from time to time. I've run into enough devout people over the years who would look at someone of a different faith and say the same. If you don't share "my faith" that you are not a believer. I think in our area if the BSA were a strongly faith based group, there are lots of parents who would not send their children because they didn't want them to be proselytized to be someone of a different faith or even at all. That it's only like 1% religious may actually be a good thing. We say grace before meals - but that's about it.

I think at some levels it comes down to questions of "good and evil" or "right and wrong". There's probably also a societal influence about what makes someone a good member of society. Those of us with faith would probably say that questions like this, and even the evolution of society is guided by a higher power - God to be specific. Those of us without faith would attribute notions of "good and evil" or "right and wrong" to something else. I'm a fairly religious person and I try to be a good person because it's the right thing to do - not because it's somehow rooted in a religious direction from God. Without having the 10 commandments, I'd like to imagine that I'd still make the same choices I do today. A Scoutmaster without God would be fine as long as he respected the fact that some do believe and encouraged them to do so. It's not all the different from the way we distinguish different faiths today. I grew up Catholic. It would be like a Lutheran Scout looking at me and saying "he doesn't see God as I do, so how can I listen to any guidance from him?"

I'm thinking the Christian thing to do would be to encourage everyone to join (regardless of whether they believe in God or not), keep the religious requirements, and have a way for those who do not believe to complete the requirements without having to profess faith. That way you at least expose everyone to the ideas of a life with faith and allow them to decide if they want to develop their own faith further or not.

@desertrat77 Perhaps some of this is due to weak leadership skills. But I think behind this is a lack of vision and purpose and perhaps challenge. I think of other activities that youth are involved in such as sports or the arts. In those areas, the purpose and challenge is more clear. Win the game, win the season, win the championship. To do that push yourself, work hard, develop more skills. It's the promise of winning and improving that drives many youth to keep going in sports. It's harder to see what that purpose is in Scouting. What drives a Scout to develop as a leader?

I 100% support keeping a faith component of the program. As someone who volunteers in a less faith based Scouting area, let me share what I see. I cannot ever remember a Cubmaster or Scoutmaster tying the oath & law or a discussion on values back to god. What I see around here is that the Oath & Law are emphasized as a set of guidelines or rules by which people of good character live their lives. So, that clause in the Oath (Do my duty to God) is something you do because you are a person of good character and people of good character do their duty to god. However, the clause (Do my duty to God) does not then become the foundation upon which we guide Scouts on everything else in the oath in law. For example - a Scout is Trustworthy because a person of good character is trustworthy - not because God tells us to be trustworthy. I would add - this is why I think may in my area would be fine to allow those without a belief in God to join. Of course we'd want to see prayers at meals continues. Of course we'd want to see discussion of how faith in the ranks continue. Of course we'd want to see Sunday services continue to be available. But, if a Scout wants to develop as a person of strong character and can internally reconcile the fact that Duty to God doesn't apply to him or her - then why not?

Thanks @desertrat77 & @Eagle94-A1 - this helps me to understand better. Our troop currently has some more active OA members. I think we've got some Scouts who like Scouting, but are looking for something a little bigger than the troop experience. They seem to like the ability to help organize the District Camporee. Another thing I hear is that it gives them another group of older Scouts to spend time with. Since I'm not an OA member I can't really comment on the state of the OA. From what I see here locally some boys like being involved at that next level of Scouting - so perhaps there's a good opportunity here. Get the OA chapters to focus around bringing together great campers and focus there. More advanced OA trips full of older scouts. I've got to imagine that no-one is going to stop an OA chapter from doing that. Yeah, perhaps the books and events are all focused differently - but I've got to think you can add new elements. Sorry if this doesn't make any sense. I just hear the concerns and think about all the possibilities we have to do really fun things with these Scouts. I get that if we think about it from the perspective of what we used to do, but no longer can, it's discouraging. But, when I think about it from the perspective of all the possibilities I'm encouraged. If we really do have a society of of our strongest Scouts looking for a new purpose - what a great opportunity.

I'm not OA - so please forgive the question. When I was a Scout, I always heard that the OA was the group of elite scouts. Reading the comments over the past year, I hear more about ceremonies and regalia. I'm gathering there's more to the OA than ceremonies and council camp maintenance. Could perhaps this be the next chapter for the OA? Perhaps a focus around advanced camping?

I think the level of religion in Scouting across the US varies a lot. I've lived in various different locations on the US East Coast. In all the Scouting units I've ever participated in, religion and faith has always had a very minor component. All of these units have been attached to a religious institution. In my current troop we are chartered to a very strong local church in a pretty religious part of the country. We have a very active Chartered Organization Representative who is very active in the church. In our troop, religion is really only manifested by the occasional prayer before meals and the offering of the religious emblems program by some interested adults. The troop has members from all kinds of faiths around town. We don't focus on the faith component, but do let prospective members know the BSA rules on faith. The four packs that feed our troop all appear to operate much the same way. We've never consciously tried to tone down faith - it's just the way it's been. I think it reflects more about our community than our troop. Despite being in the US southeast where religion is an important part of life, people don't really seem to bring it to Scouting.

I wonder how much of our annual fee goes to pay insurance premiums. Is that info available anywhere?

I think it's an important, controversial topic affecting an organization that is beloved by people here. That's going to bring out lots of heartfelt comments and discussion.

That's awesome your taking this one. Being a den leader is one of the best volunteer jobs ever. I'd go further than ask the pack committee for materials. Your pack ought to have a membership co-ordinator. This person should be driving a program of recruiting new members every year. No worries if you pack doesn't have one - most don't. However, if they don't, you ought to lean on the pack committee to help in recruiting for your den. Things I'd do: - publicize to the pack and any attached troops & crews that you're looking for members to grow the den. Ask for their help in referring folks - get fliers out to the school classes that feed your pack - get the Cubmaster to get a recruiter program started amongst the boys. Make a big deal when a scout recruits a friend - ask for help from pack families to send emails to neighborhood email lists - put up flyers in libraries, shopping centers, etc. - work with the pack committee to get a visit the pack day schedulded. Put the word out that you want visitors. - reach out to your district membership chair. See if they have any ideas on how more to recruit in your area. Best of luck!!!!

Hi @rubixcube, As a former Troop Committee Chair - I'll add my .02 here. It sounds like you've got a troop that has been run by a certain group of Scouters for a very long time. I'm guessing that yours, and many other families, have relied on them for many years to make many hundreds of decisions. I'm guessing that as a whole the families have been happy to have their time and leadership in support of the Scouts. Now you've got a situation where you look at a significant decision and say "hmm. I don't like that one." You could go down the path of calling Council and trying to get this decision changed. But I don't think that really helps you all. Even if you got it changed, you might, as the say "win the battle to lose the war." Do you lose their involvement? Do you create some significant hurt within the group? I'd encourage you and some others to become registered Troop Committee members. Find some jobs to help out with. Next time something like this comes up, you'll all be in a much better position to say "No, let's not do that." Along the way you'll also help strengthen the troop too - a side bonus.

There's a Scouting Magazine from a few years ago on the BSA Congressional Charter: https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2016/06/15/june-15-1916-woodrow-wilson-made-bsa-official/. In there are some quotes from President Woodrow Wilson: I have the utmost sympathy for those who suffered abuse at the hands of volunteers in Scouting. But, suing the BSA and driving it to the point of bankruptcy ends up harming the kids in our country. We can all sit around and bash national all we want, but fundamentally having Scouting from the Boy Scouts of America is a good thing for the youth of our country. Loosing the organization and facilities to support Scouting in our country would be a real shame. I do fully, wholeheartedly, and without any reservation agree that victims of abuse should be compensated. Further, any adult who abused a child or was involved in it's cover-up should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. I expect that all of the people who were involved in cover-ups of abuse are long since gone so you're not punishing them. So the people who did this are not being punished. It's also not like the BSA is a for profit company that needs to be taught a lesson. It's essentially a public service agency organized as a special kind of corporation. With 2,000,000 kids in a Scouting program with a Congressional charter, doesn't this kind of become the nation's problem? Would we shut down a school system and sell it's facilities because teachers in the past had abused children? Just as a school system has an obligation to provide education to it's community, doesn't a group with a Congressional charter have the obligation to provide Scouting to the youth of our nation? I'm not suggesting that BSA gets a bailout nor am I suggesting that these lawsuits get stopped. But, since there is a group with a Congressional charter, perhaps Congress could establish a fund from which to pay these lawsuits?

My deepest apologies for even suggesting that - it was an unintentional omission. I've been blessed and most fortunate to work with many female Scouters - both as volunteers and professionals. Our pack and troop leadership teams were probably 50% female and I was happy for that.

Precisely. You pretty well just described how a district team should be staffed. It's unfortunate that somewhere along the way the idea developed that Scouters need to pick one or the other - they don't. As you point out, a district team shouldn't be a top down bureaucracy. The top of the Scouting hierarchy is the unit - the inverted pyramid. The district concept should really about getting those unit scouters to work together to improve Scouting across the community for unit level Scouts. For example. One thing a district does is organize a district camporee. Wouldn't the best people to lead the planning of camporee be unit Scouters from around the district who know what the youth want? So, the district camporee committee ought to be just that - one person from each of the troops who can get together a few times over the course of the year and figure out camporee. In the process, these folks learn from each other. The Scouts across the district benefit in two ways: 1) the Scouts get a well thought out camporee with ideas from across the district, and 2) the Scouts get new ideas in their own troops as the natural byproduct of adults working together. In addition, it's not that much work. Planning a camporee by yourself is a lot of work. A team of experienced Scouters from across the district - not as much. Commissioners should be the same thing. They should be those very experienced unit Scouters who can serve as a resource and mentor to other units. You're an experienced ASM who knows how it works? Could you spare an hour or two a month to be a coach to a unit leader in another unit? This is where our National level volunteers have failed. They've ignored this part of Scouting enough that the concept of a district bureaucracy has evolved. They've let the idea that it's unit vs. district take hold. I'm not quite in agreement though about doing unit assessments and closing down units. If we go with the idea that a district team is that collection of unit Scouters who work together to help each other succeed. Assessments should only exist in the most vague way where a commissioner says "hey folks, these troop I'm working with is struggling." The fix for that is that folks pitch in to then help the unit become successful. Maybe they're currently lacking someone who knows where to camp or how to recruit new scouts - so someone helps them get going again.