ParkMan

Certainly - if there is a mathematics merit badge and a Scout is working on it, then yes - support that Scout in working on those math problems. Since you're trying to define boundaries here, I'd say that supporting Scout's interest in earning merit badges is good because it's a core part of the program. Doing math problems with your scouts is out because it is not part of the program. While you could make a case that there is a role for math problems in the context of earning a badge, I'd argue that there is a difference. Forcing a scout to do work on a specific Merit Badges should not be mandatory. I get the sense you're leading up to a bigger argument here.

Well - to an extent. Math problems help my daughter to grow, but I wouldn't subject Scouts to that. Within the context of the Scouting type activities - merit badges, camping, leadership opportunities, patrol activities, etc. Yes - even if they don't bring specific value to the troop or community, yes - we should support them.

In our results oriented world of today, I think we have to be careful how much we try to find the "value" in what Scouts do. Scouting is a youth development activity with four aims. All of those aims are targeted at developing the individual - they don't worry about how much value that individual then adds to the group. I think this is the right model. Since development of youth is the point, helping them develop along the four aims is the purpose. So, if a youth earns 8, 18, or 80 merit badges and it helps the scout to grow then we're succeeding. So, I wouldn't try to stop a Scout who's enjoying earning merit badges. If all they ever do is earn merit badges (an extreme case), then we should suggest that there are other parts of Scouting to explore. But, I would not suggest that they stop earning merit badges.

It's probably worth restating the aims: character development, citizenship training, personal fitness, and leadership. I see that merit badges accomplish a few things: they help a scout explore an area of interest they provide some adult/youth interaction they are (can be) fun The more areas you learn about as a kid, the more prepared you are as a citizen. Along the way, you get to interact with more adults which might help you in developing your own character (aka adult association). Oh yeah, you get to have some fun too.

What was the significance of 1992? Baring some sort of legal change of status, I'd think the rule still apply. These are the rules that governed incorporation of the BSA. Someone who has standing to sue over those rules could.

I would gather that there has to be a written record of this meeting and vote. Who has standing to request that information?

@skeptic, as you know well, Scouting is a youth development activity. Because it's a youth development activity, Scouting is designed to put youth into new and challenging situations in a safe environment. Because these situations are challenging, Scouts often try them, struggle, fail, and then try them again. Along the way, youth oftern have to assume more responsibility then they are accustomed to. This kind of challenging environment is often difficult for parents to watch. A great many parents cannot resist the temptation to intervene. That intervention can eliminate the benefit of the struggle. Further, because of normal pardnt/child dynamics, many Scouts are less comfortable extending themselves in front of parents. If the BSA continues to push this family camping angle, it looks to make it much harder to pursue that core goal. People are very hesitant about losing such. An important aspect of Scouting.

I've not seen this month's issue yet - so I'm hesitant to comment too much. I do not mind a reminder that there is a role for families in Scouting. But I fear that either: national continues to misunderstand the cause/effect relationship here. national understands it, but is confusing the volunteers with the terminology Some slick messaging around families will not get families to participate. Great programming will get families to participate.

Ok - I can get behind that - to a point. I do think we have to be very upfront that this is what we're talking about. JTE is a pretty mediocre tool, but it is a tool. So leveraging the tools we have to the best of their potential is good. Yet, I think we have to be careful that we don't continue to further the belief that JTE is the desired way to accomplish these goals.

Ok - I'll take your word on it. I actually find the evolution of this topic kind of odd. We started out going through all the limitations of JTE and are now discussing how if we made it a competition, people would participate more. Guess I'm more interested in really addressing the issue that JTE is designed for than trying to find ways to promote it. I'm reminded that JTE feels a lot to me like other BSA initiatives. That the BSA needs to find a way to manage units. We see it from national, I see it from the council professionals too. But, in reality this is all backwards - the BSA shouldn't be trying to manage units. The BSA should be looking at how they can best support units. Getting units to become more successful involves personal investment of time to understand the personal goals of units, to help their leaders grow, become excited about Scouting, to have a desire to grow. You can't achieve this through a form or by assessments from council. It's people investing time and working with people. Yet, if they don't want to grow, then the BSA needs to find a way to start a second unit down the street. This is why I find stuff like JTE, online training, etc. - the wrong answer. This is why I find ideas like empowering the district/council with the ability to force change in a unit - the wrong answer.

When I saw "we", I didn't so much mean that our troop is the largest in the district. I meant that within districts, there is an inherent understanding of who the big troops are and who the small troops are. Who the active troops are and the inactive troops. We as Scouters don't so much need another plaque to tell us who the best troop is - we generally know that stuff.

Honestly - I seriously doubt anyone would even bother with a JTE competition. We already have a JTE competition - it's called being the largest, most active troop in the district.

For YPT to work, you have to be willing to report if there is an issue. But, there's a difference between a "one time mistake that is clearly a mistake". For example, two Scouters are together to provide two deep leadership with a single scout. One realizes he left something in the car and runs to grab it. It creates a moment where the other Scouter is in violation of YPT. Scouter alone with the Scout recognizes the mistake and excuses himself from the situation. Technically there is a violation there - but it's clear to all that it was a mistake. But, beyond that you really need to be aware of situations that may look innocent, but are indeed a potential issue. For example - a Scouter leaves and drives a Scout home alone. Everyone should know better than to do that. Was it a mistake, or was it intentional? Here I think you have to report it and let the SE sort it out. My understanding is that SEs have been trained on what to look for and how to determine mistakes from something larger.

As I see it, there are really only a few constituencies that matter: the Scouts, the parents, the volunteers, and the chartered org. I expect that none of them care about JTE. So, for a great many Scouters, there's a big question of why even bother? So you recharter but don't do JTE - so what? It's a truism that a unit that sets some goals and works at them will improve. As JTE is a way to help set goals, then it has value. But, experience has shown that relatively few units really use it to set any goals. It's written for people who are comfortable bringing some organization and planning to Scouting. Odds are that those folks are already involved in successful units. The trick is that it becomes a tool for the struggling units - for those folks I just don't believe it's proscriptive enough to be useful. To me, the relevant question becomes - what's the most effective way for the BSA to encourage a struggling unit to set goals and prosper. I don't think it's a bureaucratic form. My hunch is that it's the BSA having people who can work collaboratively with the units to set goals and succeed. Simply passing them a checklist and saying "go succeed" is wishful thinking.

If I read through the entire JTE list and extract all the program items, it looks something like: 1. Planning and Budgeting: Have a planning meeting involving youth 2. Building Scouting: no program items 3. Retention: no program items 4. Webelos-to-Scout: no program items (OK, you have to encourage someone to be a den chief) 5. Advancement: Scouts advance in rank every year. 6. Short-term camping: Hold 9 short term camping trips 7. Long-term camping: Encourage scouts to attend a council summer camp or national HA base 8. Service projects: Add service projects to your program 9. Patrol method: Have patrols, an SPL, hold PLC meetings, send someone to NYLT 10. Leadership & family engagement: Hold 3 COH 11. Trained leadership: no program items So basically, JTE's contribution to the troop program is: have a planning meeting, have Scouts rank up every year, camp 9 times, go to summer camp, have some service projects, have patrols, have PLC meetings, have 3 COH. The rest are committee things - budgets, recruiting, retention, training, volunteers. These are important - but they are not program. JTE needs to improve the program related goals and make them things that count. It's not a question of how often you camp, it's a question of where yo go, who selects the location, and who plans the event. Holding PLC meetings is good, but how the PLC leads the troop is even better.

It's the targets. In short - JTE in is present form is too quantitative. Recruit N new scouts, send Y scouts to summer camp. It almost entirely ignore methods like Scout led & patrol method. This in turn creates a perception that adult led troops that are focused on numbers and metrics are more important than the quality of the program in those troops. This all creates a perception of what a quality troop is that runs contrary to why most people became volunteers. Most of us didn't become volunteers to worry about growth charts and retention rates. We became volunteers to focus on delivering outstanding programs to youth. That relatively little in JTE reinforces that (save retention rate and camping rate), it's become somewhat of a joke to many. Very few units use JTE in a meaningful way. Most gold troops achieve gold because they are great troops already.

If I may... I read lots of topics of the form [district folks, Wood Badge cult members, professionals, or council folks] drive me nuts when they keep pushing [roundtables, JTE, Wood Badge, membership drives, popcorn, training, ...] That's fine and all that, but I get the sense that people get themselves pretty worked up over it. I find the various conversations like those in turn get people frustrated and demoralized. i.e "the Wood Badge cult people in our council are a clique that are destroying Scouting because they keep forcing me to go to Roundtables where they force us all to hear about their adult led Merit Badge Universities which hand out Merit Badges every hour in an effort to ensure that every 12 year old makes Eagle and earns 7 insta-palms". I'd simply offer that Scouting is made up of all kinds of people. It's fine and fun to rant and rave on the internet about those we disagree with - that is the primary reason Al Gore created the internet after all. But, at the end of the day we're all just people who are doing what we know to do to try and making Scouting a richer program. Again - I'd encourage everyone to find their fun and focus on it. You don't like membership, fundraising, training, and the like - then ignore them. But, don't get worked up that others do like them. Simply recognize that we all can find a place to contribute and leave our own little mark on Scouting.

My encouragement to you would be to find your fun. Don't feel pressured into the lie that you need to care about all this stuff. We are all different and have different interests. That's what makes this all so wonderful. There is a home in Scouting for all kinds of volunteers. Those who love helping a 7 year old build a Pinewood Derby Car, those who love helping a 12 year old discover that he can camp independently, those who love helping a 15 year old be a great Senior Patrol Leader, and many, many more things. We are all different and care about different things - and that's OK. Myself - I'm more the kind of person who enjoys the organizational aspects of what I do. I enjoy problem solving and the challenge of figuring out how to get stuff done. I get my fun in helping Scouters in our team to provide an outstanding program for the Scouts. I don't mind the bureaucratic challenges and recognize that someone needs to deal with them. One of my favorite Scouters is our troop's SM. He'd walk into the troop committee meeting when we were reviewing the budget, talking about the website, or some other administrative thing. He'd promptly turn around and go back to working with the boys. It's not that he didn't think they were important discussions - he just wasn't personally interested and didn't see any need to pretend he was. He knew we'd cover it - so why did he have to care? As the old saying goes - "don't sweat the small stuff." If "JTE, wood badge, roundtable, membership, popcorn, ILST, council, explain-describe-and-discuss requirements, complaints about SM's on this forum, fees, MB universities, Trainer's EDGE and summer camp school classes" bother you then ignore them. Let others worry about those things. Focus on the things that you care about.

Holy cow! What lunacy.

Huh? We ask adults directly to volunteer all the time in our district.

My sense is that the drop is largely due to a decline in adult enthusiasm coupled with the recognition that Scout BSA was coming. These units may have been youth led, but the energy to keep them moving year after year comes from adults. I think Venturing has suffered from an identity problem which has led to an adult enthusiasm problem.

This is something that gets repeated a lot, but not really true. The point of YPT is to put in place processes and culture to make abuse significantly less likely to occur. Further, if it does occur, YPT should give us the tools to recognize it and stop it as quickly as possible. I'm not saying that YPT really achieves this things - but that's the purpose as I see it.

We shouldn't keep passing the buck for things like this on to district or council Scouters. If the unit leadership doesn't take some ownership and show it's important, then the unit Scouters won't see it as important. Yes, no-one likes taking a course on YPT, but the unit leadership should be out there advocating that folks get it done. Also - I don't see any real value in having district Scouters police this. Our district training team consists of a small number of very seasoned Scouters. They've all been through packs and troops and have had kids that have aged out. They all know the program well and are a great resource. Myself, I'd want those people out there finding ways to help units succeed. Asking them to play YPT cop seems like a waste of that resource. Really - this one is on units to own. When it was "best effort" to get it done, many didn't. Now, the councils are creating a compelling reason to have it done. Yes - it stinks that we all have to do more now, but it's only happened because units showed they needed a reason to do it.

Great list! I think this is just the kind of proactive thinking that will help the BSA become more interesting to kids.

Who's trivializing it? It's probably a pretty good idea for a volunteer entrusted with the safety of people's kids to have to sit down once a year and go over the rules again. It keeps the concepts and materials fresh in everyone's mind. Of course I don't "need" it. But, it does help serve as a reminder. Even those somber videos with the stories about people who have been victimized serve as a refresher. For work I have to yearly take all kinds of refresher trainings which are nothing more than last year's material rehashed. It's done on purpose. Let's be honest - the only reason councils are imposing this new "YPT valid for the full registration time" rule is because volunteers would let YPT expire and then not take it until they had to. I'd see it every year. As the year progressed, more YPT trainings would expire and no one would bother to take it until they had to for re-registration. Then, it would take a committee chair chasing for a month or two for it to happen. I'd sit in district training meetings, look at the numbers, and know full well that 100 emails out to remind people wouldn't do a thing until re-registration. If volunteers and units were more proactive in keeping it up to date, then I doubt this would even be happening. But, they are not - so we get more rules like this one. I get that we're all busy. YPT is online and can be split into four 20-30 minute segments. Yes, I'm all for councils & national leaving volunteers alone so that they can do their work. But, I just find all the protesting about YPT a little much given all the lawsuits over abuse of Scouts in our past.