packsaddle

This system is structured in a way that depends totally on having willing (and usually 'interested') volunteers. It is a natural tendency for someone who invests freely and sometimes deeply into something they have great interest in...to naturally have a feeling of 'ownership' for the thing (a pack or troop in this case) in which they've invested. This is to be expected. However, this also naturally tends to produce competition by forming little 'fiefdoms' like 'feeder packs' and 'feeder troops' and 'the-way-we-usually-do-things'. Once these expectations are in place, any departure can be considered a threat to the 'stability' of the existing structure. I get all this. None of it, however, is part of 'friendly', 'courteous', 'helpful', or 'trustworthy'. And when things like I experienced happen, I'll throw in violations of 'cheerful' and 'brave' as well because the behind-the-back way they happen is cowardly as well. While it is understandable, it is not completely realistic because individual families are free agents and if they're not allowed to make their own choices of units, they can, and do, choose to leave scouting. If there is any part of 'training' that warns against this kind of thing, I am unaware of it. BUT, these sources of discord and conflict are the natural tendency of things if the structure of the organization depends on interested volunteers. Perhaps the 'training' should address this kind of thing directly as something to avoid. At least then no one could claim they were unaware of the potential problems.

When I took over as CM, the pack was declining. One of my bear DLs decided to disband the den. She said something to her friends... to the effect that she thought the pack might die. She never said anything to me about this but then, I was the new CM and still finding my way. She really didn't know me that well. But then, a den leader from another pack in town, who is friends with the 'former' Bear den leader, started calling all of the parents in our pack to inform them that the pack was going to close and they should switch to the other pack. I didn't find out about any of this until one of those parents called me with an angry tone to complain that I should have been honest enough to tell them the pack was going to close, rather than hear about it from the other pack. I was flabergasted and completely blindsided by this. Then I found out that it went farther than one person from the other pack making a few phone calls. The DE had been giving all sorts of preference to the other pack for years. That was when I began to understand the toxic sociology of adult leadership in BSA. Because in my past I had already learned about and understood such things as a sort of norm in the South, I was able to adjust and take the measures needed to first: survive the immediate assault, and then: to outmaneuver the others in a way that turned the tables. But it took years of effort to turn those tables. I can tell you that in matters like this, to be on the receiving end is a pretty bad feeling. It encompasses all sorts of betrayal and wholesale violation of many points of the Scout Law. My pack survived nicely in the end, but the experience in total led me to have a healthy contempt for BSA 'professionals' and to be wary of the other adult leaders. It was bitter fruit but I suppose that is what the system is designed to produce.

One BB at a time, huh? Here's the way to jazz that up. My son discovered it on his own when he was that age and I had given him an air rifle to learn marksmanship. He discovered that if you make the target a can of seltzer, you get instant gratification for a solid hit. There's no reason why water balloons wouldn't do just as well. Plus, if they're not being thrown at anyone, you can make them bigger than an egg, lol.

I know of a leader who 'lost it' in a flood of swearing. He was summarily dismissed.

The most eco-friendly approach, to me, is not to use them at all. Just smell like the primates we are. Should do the trick, lol. OTOH I usually go solo so..... If a bear is after my food, UDAP bear spray seems to work great. That's what we use when we take courses into the Yellowstone area. If I've accidentally stumbled on a kill they're guarding, there's not much of anything that will prevent me from being on the menu. It's a disquieting feeling to realize you're standing in the midst of an old kill and the 'wallow' is about 10 feet away and that you're one of the luckiest persons on the planet because you're not already dead. But just hiking on the trail nearly all of them I've encountered run away. For the couple that didn't, one seemed a little too curious so I just started throwing rocks...hard. They don't seem to understand how something my size can reach that far. One caught me by surprise on Mt. LeConte and charged at me. I just walked away and left my stuff for him. Another time one came to my campsite to take what I was cooking (probably didn't help that I had been eating sardines for a couple of days). He got close enough for me to whack the hell out of him with my staff. He decided it wasn't worth it. After that I carried bear spray. The ones who've experienced that stuff turn around when the see the can come out. And it's really impressive when you use it, makes a huge fog...and you need to make certain that it doesn't drift back at you....you'll really regret it.

Uh huh!

H'mmmm....probably should watch that guy...carefully.

It didn't work out well for Kramer and Newman either.

Yes, Welcome! It's a motley crew but mostly civilized. We look forward to 'hearing' more from you.

Very sad, I can't imagine the grief that his family is suffering.

That's a good choice for the boys. Nothing really challenging and it's nice and cool.

JoeBob, Next time let me know that you're going and I might join you. Your boys matched my personal order exactly. Pigeon, 'circus' is a good description this time of year. Nantahala, not very exciting and too crowded for me. Ocoee, can also be really crowded depending on the day. Chucky is, as you say, technical and it's going to get a lot lower. That one is much better in early May. Section III, with the right water (not right now as you say) doing the entire section is just wonderful. Starting at Earl's Ford and doing the whole thing to 76. I'm guessing you guys put in at Sandy Ford? That was the second whitewater trip I ever made...The day after my first trip in my brand new Old Town canoe with no flotation and a wooden paddle back in 1972 on ..... Section IV. Back then, we were taking inner tubes through Woodall Shoals and no one raised any concerns. I still sometimes enjoy a swim through Bull Sluice at the end of section III...confirms my insanity for the students. Things changed after the event that inspired the book, Saints by the River. That and a flood changed some of the rapids, maybe a lot of them. A friend of mine was nearly killed in a sieve on Crack-in-rock (I think that's the one) but he was small and it spit him out after a long minute or so. All that was back before it was a W&S river and the only outfitter at that time was Southeastern Expeditions so things were not crowded at all. After Deliverance and the outfitters jamming things, I gave up on the Chattooga on anything other than a weekday in May or maybe September if there's enough water. I used to join a bunch out of Ga Tech led by the Dean of Students, great guy, Miller Templeton. He would take his old Grumman down the river standing with a long paddle and wearing a pith helmet. THOSE were some of the best days ever. I'm just glad I still remember all those times. Section III in December is still just lovely. Cool but lovely. But if you do it again, let me know. If I'm in the country I might join you for a weekday trip. Wow, I'm in the mood now but the water is low. Maybe I'll hike it and go for an occasional swim.

Chattooga, Ocoee, Nantahala?

I disagree about having two BORs. One should serve any purpose that is needed for this.

Just for you, Twocubdad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d31R9-G4OyM

Speaking of the Chinese, I'm thinking about the opening ceremony of the 2008 Beijing Olympics where they were rolling out a flat panel screen the size of a stadium and providing the world with a display of talent and technology that is unlikely ever to be topped in my lifetime..compared to the grotesque spectacle that was unfolding here as my fellow countrymen were prostrating themselves to people who were demanding a 'long form birth certificate', predicting "jack-booted thugs" would be invading the country, and think the world is less than 10K years old. Square THAT with those so-called cultural characteristics.

Greed...for lack of a better word, is....risky. LOL, I guess Gordon Gekko, at least, was staying on the right side of the law, unlike the case you described, NJ. You'd think an accountant would KNOW that this stuff always comes to the surface sooner or later. If my memory serves me, in my example (driven by gonads, not greed) the person made restitution, lost job and pretty much all prospects of a bright future. The guy, I have no idea what happened to him. Bad Wolf, two computers, two networks. You're right. It's a mystery. At least I tried to find a way to let you off the hook, lol.

50 miles. Wow. But that answers it. The little town doesn't have the units. It's the bigger town 50 miles away. How big is that town?

I went ahead and locked the duplicate again. With your permission, Bad Wolf, I'll delete the other copy. No one has responded. I'm thinking this is something that is happening automatically for you and that you are not actually at fault somehow, for creating these duplicates. Wanna try an experimental thread to see?

In my previous career we had an office clerk who kept the petty cash fund under her strict teutonic scrutiny. I know this because my lab had to use that fund to buy stamps for official mail. And then one day she didn't show up for work. And then after a couple of days, someone realized that she had taken the petty cash (less than $5000). They found her in S. Dakota. She had become romantically involved with a low-life type and either Cupid or hormones led her astray. She destroyed her federal retirement, not to mention the rest of her 'professional' life, for what amounts to pocket change to some people...that and a sleazy male. Sigh....What causes women to be attracted to those sleazy types? I mean...in my entire life I've never had a woman 'come on' to me, never had a single student (female OR male!) offer to exchange favors for a good grade, not even one time. So I'm wondering: what manner of insult IS this? What the heck is so wrong with me that I haven't even been tempted, not one single time? Am I really that ugly..don't answer that Twocubdad. Oh well, maybe it's for the best. Egad, now I'm really depressed. Think I'll go home and eat a quart of ice cream.

Thanks, it's a great quote. If we don't know where it came from is it still a quote? I guess the author is that really famous person, 'anonymous', lol. NJ. I've been wondering how big the pack and troop can be if the entire town only has 300 people, considering the typical age distribution, childless couples, children under scout age, females, single persons...not to mention wondering what is the business model for a bistro that manages to survive in that small town? Montana is a wondrous place!

As I remember it is reputed to have been Mark Twain.

I locked the duplicate thread to prevent confusion. With your permission, Bad Wolf, I'll delete it. Edit: Now that I have read the article, are you sure this is a program thread, rather than I&P?

Then it might be time to go for a walk. I hope there are better options around there for you.

Before you vote with your feet, please explain as objectively as you can, your thoughts on all this to the unit leadership and committee. You can engage them in a conversation if you like. Think of it as a really big SM conference. And then, if you think they haven't taken your point to heart, engage the feet. By doing this you accomplish two important goals. First you will know that you did your best to communicate your concerns and second, no one, none of them, will be able to claim that they had no idea.