packsaddle

I can't speak for the other moderators but we have an informal agreement to 'sign' any action as serious as a deletion. Therefore I am happy to agree with you that our members have been (and continue to be) patient about this. I think it speaks well of our adherence to the Scout Law throughout our lives. I too, think this is the best forum on the internet and part of the reason for that is the calibre of the membership. My thanks to all of you and while I don't know how long it will take for Terry to resolve issues with this new interface, I hope everyone can remain patient. I do know he's trying to get it right.

"...being subjected to all the state and local laws that prohibit any discrimination against homosexuals." Can you give me an example of such a local law that exercises this kind of control over churches?

Well, it looks like the 'nutters' won this round.

Thanks, that sad story is clearer now.

Merlyn, a little more detail please. What difference did it make that she had a daughter, or what the daughter's name was? Why was the daughter fired? I read the obit and can't figure out how anyone was 'outed'? What am I missing here?

Well that's the lovely thing about membership organizations, you can always leave and start your own if you want or find another that fits your belief system. If I don't like AARP I can find another senior's group to belong to. Don't like my college because they encourage anti-conservative or liberal values? I can find myself a college that fits my belief system without forcing the obvious majority of people at said college to conform to mine. On the other hand, if BSA does change the policy....are you going to exercise that freedom you just described?

Well that's the lovely thing about membership organizations, you can always leave and start your own if you want or find another that fits your belief system. If I don't like AARP I can find another senior's group to belong to. Don't like my college because they encourage anti-conservative or liberal values? I can find myself a college that fits my belief system without forcing the obvious majority of people at said college to conform to mine. I take it that I successfully answered your challenge then? Surely you can find a less cliched way to respond than that old bumper sticker slogan about starting your own program? It's long ago become stale, moldy and gone to dust.

Peregrinator, it is a UUA religious award. Not a BSA religious award. The UUA stated their views in their own literature and BSA didn't like it so BSA excluded the religious award. I concur that BSA's action did nothing whatsoever to address the disagreement. What I didn't like was that the ONLY thing BSA's action did do was to punish the boys. It was a cowardly, low thing to do, and completely unnecessary.

I'm not sure about the "solely pro-Christian" thing but BSA sure as heck DID single out the UUA (non-Christian faith) for exclusion of their religious award when they merely disagreed with the membership policy.

Comment on Basementdweller's comment: OK, I give up. Which one? ....or maybe I just don't know what a 'Man Scout' is.

Welcome, and I have to say I have enjoyed the several trivia references from everyone as well!

I was also an Eagle at 15. In my troop all of the boys did whatever advancement they did strictly on their own or with help only from other boys if needed. Parents merely transported boys to and from merit badge counselors, for example. The boys learned self-sufficiency, independence, initiative. My advice is for the dad to let the boy do it on his own. Period. It can be done. The dad doesn't have to 'hover'. Mozartbrau, "...when I was a kid who played professional sports." Wow, you must have been pretty good at it!

MattR, Thank you for your thoughts on this. I tend to agree with you. Regarding the deletion, I'm thinking the forum 'ghost' must have done the deed for your joke. I can't remember reading it but the moderators have informally agreed to 'sign' any action as serious as deleting a post, etc. I can't say for sure that someone didn't remove the joke but I can say for sure that I didn't and if I had, I would have left a message as to why. So please add the joke again as a comment and if any moderators have other thoughts, please add those comments as well. All I really want is to understand things. Thanks again for a thoughtful post. P.S. as if I need to add, this is MY second attempt to successfully add a comment.

In what I think we can agree is a fairly conservative organization, does it present a shock to anyone's intuition that the Eagle Scouts produced by that organization thereby reflect what the BSA was or IS, in terms of it's legacy policy and views?

C'mon, would you really let Basement hold you back like that? Somehow I doubt it, lol.

If you are in Eastern Daylight Time, then the fact that the server is in Central Daylight Time might explain that one hour difference. It used to in the 'old days' a few months ago. I'm just not sure about it today so I could be wrong.

Still can't edit to here's a followup comment: Eagledad also closed with the words, "From the morality perspective, who they choose to save is irrelevant." While I agree that the choice itself is irrelevant, I also disagree because it is the process of making such a choice that reveals the actual moral structure. And that is what I was trying to learn from him.

My point is that merely mouthing platitudes like 'all life is sacred', or similar words to that effect, is without relevance at the time when one must choose - and we make moral choices very often, perhaps not with such serious consequences. I was attempting to clarify by using an extreme example. However, in the scenario, at that time, if any choice is made at all there is some kind of value inequality that has been applied and even THAT may change depending on circumstances. Eagledad, I think, recognizes that. Eagledad had earlier applied, sarcastically, an example using the hot button of abortion - in his response to a post by Thomas Jefferson (and I have to tell you, it feels weird to be responding to a name like that). There was no substance in that example, however, merely a position. So I asked my question. I merely wanted to know what Eagledad would choose to do. He didn't see a moral dilemma - his words. I guess he'd save the nurse too. If he thinks adding the serial killer into a fertility clinic is more interesting, I think we've opened it to all sorts of fantasies. Years ago I posed another dilemma regarding ectopic pregnancy. That's very real so there is no false dilemma there. There was one forum member who stuck by the moral absolutist position and admitted that he would allow both woman and fetus to die. I commend his honesty, if not his choice, and am thankful that his view has not prevailed in our courts. But in this case as in that case, I merely was curious about the answer to the dilemma I posed, this time to Eagledad. And just like back then, I again offer no criticism of Eagledad's inability to 'see' a dilemma. It would have been nice for him to explain how there isn't one but I have accepted his answer as is. Sentinel947, I might add that I agree with your choice. I'd save the nurse. In the case of the woman or child choice, I'd make the decision based on what I saw at the time, probably gauging the greatest likelihood of success, or least risk, depending on how you measure these things or perhaps based on something as simple as which one I detected first. They're two persons to me. If I can't save both I'll "Do My Best" and save one of them. Sometimes the glass is half full and sometimes the container is two times larger than needed.

Eagledad, You are a fireman at a fertility clinic which is on fire. You enter the front door and to your right is a hallway with a nurse screaming in terror. To your left you see down that hall, a Dewar with two frozen embryos in it. You only have time to choose one or the other. Do you choose to save the nurse or the frozen embryos?

Welcome to the forums! It will be interesting to continue to read the give-and-take you bring to them. I have often mused that a complete (and almost identical) system of morality could be a reasoned outcome of the application of the second law of thermodynamics and a single assumption (value judgment) that greater efficiency is 'better' than lesser efficiency. So far, no one has argued against this idea.

At least they're not still complaining about Obama's Muslim faith and forged birth certificate.

The article is not clear about who (or what) is the CO. Anyone know? It is illegal for public schools to charter BSA units. On the other hand, if this is merely an issue of access to the use of the property, then that seems to be a local matter to be settled at the state/school system level.

I'm working with Firefox from a notebook in another country on an alien wireless network through and alien ISP. And everything seems to be working fine. I think the new forums just take some time to get used to. The old one seemed so comfortable, kind like an old rustbucket car that needed to be replaced for a lot of reasons long ago. Got one of those too.

As someone who my wife has ridiculed numerous times for being a WASP, I can tell you that it doesn't automatically point me in the direction of AHG or AHS, whatever. But I suspect the comment was meant with more humor, although my wife sometimes puts an 'edge' on it. (and I probably deserve it too, lol) (in reality she refers to me as a 'humorless WASP with thin Nazi lips'. I respond, "I do too have a sense of humor!") But because I used the forbidden term and in honor of OGE, I'd like to ask everyone to try to temper their comments at least for a few days, to honor him. I'll try too.

I can't express how sad this makes me feel. My thoughts will be with Ryan and his family. We lost a very, very good man, a good scout, and a good father. Tomorrow I will find a quiet place deep in a forest and reflect on him and the example he set for the rest of us. I know I am better for having known him.