packsaddle

"...assault on "God" So if God is omnipotent, shouldn't he be able to handle some pipsqueak's assault without our help? just sayin'

We live in a society where no one is responsible for their own actions, anymore. Bad grade? Bad teacher. Juvenile delinquent? Bad parents. Drugs? Bad neighborhood. Sex? Bad friends. And of course when no one is responsible for their own actions, then they're not liable for them, either. So of course a thief, pothead (even that smokes on Scout trips http://www.scouter.com/forum/working-with-kids/369176-alleged-drug-use-how-would-you-handle), bully, and underage drunk-driver can be Eagle Scouts. After all, BasementDweller, they're ~just kids~, and morality is subjective, and giving them Eagle could really ~turn him around~, and if you're not an Eagle then who are you to judge an Eagle? I was commenting on judging groups of people as opposed to individuals, not who should be on an EBOR. In the case of the EBOR the boy has not yet attained the rank of Eagle - not addressed by my comment. My comment was about a tendency for some of us to characterize Eagles as a group (they are already Eagles) as opposed to the individual boys who compose the group. Is this really such a difficult concept for you? Actually it goes deeper than that. The individual boy has made his individual decisions, taken his individual actions, done his individual work, made his individual accomplishments...and as a result, he will have gained his individual experience, knowledge, understanding, and individual sense of accomplishment. He, himself, is the only person who truly KNOWS what all that means to him. How is his personal growth and accomplishment diminished if, for example, some other Eagle steals a DVD player or something? It isn't diminished for him personally. But I do understand that shallow and thoughtless persons might see the thief and then attempt to diminish ALL Eagles as a result. They are free to be as shallow and thoughtless as they want.

@Scouter99. The UUA could write anything they wanted. BSA was free to express their indignation. But with respect to the religious award, BSA wasn't forced to do anything. There was nothing they could do to silence the UUA. There was nothing they could do to suppress the publicity. But the action they took: to deny recognition of the UUA award, ALSO had no effect on any of that. It didn't silence the UUA. It didn't suppress the publicity. It had no effect whatsoever on any of the issues. The ONLY thing it did was to deny something to boys who had no part in the conflict and who had no way to fight back. BSA didn't HAVE to do anything. If BSA had done nothing, the status of the conflict would have been the same as it was after they took action. Their action was ineffective and they knew it would be ineffective. But they took it anyway. They aimed it at innocent persons, knowing that it wasn't necessary and that it would have no effect on the issue, only on the boys. They did it anyway. Their vindictive action was gratuitous, ineffective, and aimed at boys who had no part of the conflict. But BSA knew they could take that action and there was nothing anyone could do in response. It was cowardly.

I think you're falling into the deception that the 'character' that others ascribe to Eagle recipients as a group somehow equates to the actual personal knowledge, growth, and benefit that an individual Eagle recipient receives personally. I support a view of the Eagle as an individual quest and accomplishment. The group didn't do it. The individual did. Each Eagle will live his personal life with that intimate knowledge and whatever the rest of the world thinks is just nonsense, especially if they've never attained that goal themselves. Judge a person on their own merit, not by the group they seem to be part of.

Rick, in case you're not aware, Trevorum is a founding member of the UUSO. He is very knowledgeable of the history and issues surrounding this. Edit to add: I also have the utmost respect for what Trevorum and others have tried to do...and that is to try to find a way for boys who were affected by BSA's action to experience scouting without the effect of BSA's action. Anyone who pursues something like this for the purpose of providing benefit to young people gets my admiration. I might disagree with Trevorum about other aspects of this issue but I celebrate his attempt make things better.

Moreover, the dispute in which the UUA awards were denied recognition was mostly about free speech. BSA wanted the UUA to remove criticism of BSA membership policy from the UUA literature. UUA refused so BSA decided to take their cowardly action. I doubt that this conflict is resolved as long as the other membership restriction remains.

OK, Finally!!! Here's the response I had tried to send a while back: Welcome to the forums. You are not alone. I think Merlyn may be better able to respond to your questions as he is a long-time forum member and critic, and is quite knowledgeable with regard to this topic. My response is that the membership application now has a Declaration of Religious Principle (DRP) that anyone signing the form agrees to. From my experience, some people never notice it, and even when they do, they don't pay much attention to it. Others take the DRP very seriously. There's quite a diverse set of views on it. As near as I can tell, the requirement is for a belief in a 'higher power', not necessarily a supreme being. As I understand it, BSA will accept a belief system that worships a rock or even the 'Flying Spaghetti Monster', (I'm not making this stuff up) both of which, to my mind, hardly qualify as a supreme being...at least not.any more than my cat does (although that cat evidently THINKS it is some kind of supreme being). In this manner, BSA has, for all practical purposes, accepted any belief system, although a recent forum member has noted that being Pagan has led to local rejection. One forum member long ago noted that his belief in the "higher power of reason" seems to be acceptable to BSA. And in response, even some of the most devout forum members shrank from criticizing him. It's hard to argue with that one.....

I"m just sorry that you've been left behind along with urschleim like me.

Basementdweller, how much overall time did you invest in it as well?

It is God's wrath for the BSA losing its moral compass. OK, are you happy now? God does control the code after all. It's all part of the matrix. Or...as my wife often admonishes me, "I hope you're satisfied!". Sigh. I think I'll just wait here a while for a mini-rapture.

Bullet08 mentioned something I have also wondered about. What does it cost in terms of time and money? Are these costs similar for all regions or councils?

And What would have Happened if No One to have it... would they have refused to send a group to Jambo? I'm trying to make sense out of those dates......

qwazse, I wish Vicki was still around to clonk you in the head with her steel hanky, lol. My compliments for a great response using sexist claptrap, as she called it. I'm envious.

Kudu, you and H.L. Mencken seem to be kindred spirits, I think. I actually like that, BTW. Sorry about the spelling. But since I haven't participated.....I'll try to get it right in the future.

Please, who said that?

"The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here.." Abraham Lincoln edit to add: “Who the hell wants to hear actors talk?†H.M. Warner, Warner Brothers Studios, 1927 "I think there is a world market for maybe five computers." Thomas Watson, president of IBM, 1943 "Television won't be able to hold on to any market it captures after the first six months. People will soon get tired of staring at a plywood box every night." Darryl Zanuck, executive at 20th Century Fox, 1946

Great saying. I've heard this from statisticians often. I checked for the quote a long time ago and discovered that although Reader's Digest attributed it to Lang, on further review no one has found the actual origin of the quote. But I'm sure that Lang would be happy to take credit for such a great one. He's as good as anyone for it.

The pack merely handed them to the troop. The troop gave them a handbook and a neckerchief as they arrived at the other side of the bridge.

There are the rules on the paper that comes with the kit or else our district stated the rules for the district. I was the person who weighed and measured derby cars for the district race. It was interesting to see how incredibly meticulously some of the boys had made their cars. But if it met the weight and dimension requirements I then checked for lubricants (we banned silicone) or other custom features, different or modified wheels for example. One guy had custom machined axles in his machine shop and polished them to mirror finish. Then he tried to hide this by enclosing the wheels. At weigh-in I asked all of the boys who had made their cars. They're pretty honest at the weigh-in table. That car...I disqualified. Daddy not happy at all. He had been used to winning every race. I also sent quite a few back to remove weight. They claimed my balance was not accurate whereupon I produced a set of NBS standards and checked it in front of them. Not much they could do after that but to start whittling on that block of wood or else remove some lead. Type of wood. We didn't care as long as the other requirements were met. The wood itself won't make a difference. But if the stated rules say it has to be the 'official' block, then that's that. I have no idea how to check, though, if it's painted. If not painted, pine is pretty easy to tell from maple or other woods.

Where some of us 'see' benefits to woodbadge, they seem to be intangible benefits and often applied to other woodbadgers rather than to oursleves. If you have taken woodbadge or plan to, what is the reason? If it's peer pressure, like Basementdweller says, that's fine. But if you have definite needs that you think woodbadge can help with I'd like to know what those are...and if woodbadge accomplished what you thought it would. I'm still open to reading the complaints but what I really want to read is the 'good stuff', and how it was of benefit to you and your unit, the success stories.

Not trolling. I asked something similar about 4 years ago and intended to try to reopen that old thread but couldn't get to it yet...hence the new one. I have been reading some comments and discussions lately about woodbadge and it looked like the new crop of forum members were plowing the same field so I wanted to see what they think about it in general. My intent wasn't to read why NOT woodbadge but rather the positive side.

No argument here. I guess that's the silver lining.

Well, I can tell you this: I just love reading you, Kudu, and Basement's plain spokenness. Thanks for sticking around. Kudu, after reading the above, I'm almost sorry I started that thread over in the Woodbadge forum in which I asked 'Why Woodbadge?'. But who knows, maybe someone will have a good response to it.

Over the years I've read various criticisms, especially from Kudu, regarding the BSA program and woodbadge in particular. And I thought I understood the different 'sides' who advocate or cast a critical eye. But the recent thread by Khaliela in which she was denied membership because either 1) she was pagan or 2) her religious convictions would not allow her to wear some hat at Woodbadge....made me wonder again: Why does anyone want to do Woodbadge? Is this some kind of fraternity thing or is there really some benefit to it? And if there is, please describe what those benefits are. Just curious. (and don't worry, I've already been told plenty of times it would not be good for me to do Woodbadge, lol)

Curious position from my perspective. If a scout was caught cheating on tests in high school would you consider that none of your business or is it a reflection on his trustworthiness? What if he was hazing other youth on a HS sports team? Not in scouting so no worry about friendly, courteous, kind. Smoking cigarettes and yelling obscenities at a village holiday gathering with young children around? No biggie, it's not a camp out, clean mind and strong body only count in the woods. Character is what happens when nobody is looking. Isn't that what we're trying to teach? I would caution that while some lessons are GOING to be learned on their own, those are not necessarily lessons they NEED to learn on their own. In the case of sexuality, I would hope that most of the lessons can be learned from the mistakes OTHER people have made, lol.