packsaddle

Wow, when I read the first post I thought it was a joke (late April 1st or something) but you guys are SERIOUS! OMG!

Not funny. Tragic.

Now THAT is a great idea! I can tell you from experience that the reaction by the boys to having designed and made a teepee is well worth the effort. But it does take a lot of fabric.

So.....you agree with Kudu?

I think I can appreciate what Scouter99 is trying to communicate. I see this frequently in students. There seems to be a tendency to believe that because one has read an explanation and it seems to be clear and understandable...that we actually do understand it. This is, to me, the difference between simple knowledge of facts ... and 'understanding' which, in my view, involves 'knowledge' of how all the 'facts' form a reasonable and logical system of interactions which can produce new 'emergent' outcomes and behaviors as a result of that interaction, outcomes that may not be obvious merely by examining the 'parts' of the 'whole'. I can ask trivial questions and quite a number of students can quickly answer using the internet. But understanding the relevance of those answers to each other or to other aspects of life evidently cannot be found in an app. That takes more than the skill of how to do a search. It requires that content to be 'remembered' in sufficient detail that ideas and facts can be assembled within students' minds in a way that has broader meaning and understanding. This process might be sped up with internet access but the 'heavy lifting' is still something that has to be done by each person. And the risk I see is that someone with a 'smart' phone might be tempted to think that that ability to search IS a substitute for understanding. It isn't. Knot tying is a reasonable example. Yes, knowing how to tie a knot is a trivial matter. There are many different types and an app might be a great way to remind oneself how to do them. However, without an 'understanding' of the variety of functions associated with each knot, an 'understanding' or strategy of their choice and use is absent in an app. That takes practice and study and experience. And time. Am I on the right track with this Scouter99?

"My guess is that those of us who use smartphones are in favor of them, while those who don't are against them." I guess I'm the exception. I like smartphones but don't use one, mostly because of the crappy battery life. Moreover, I'm ok with the boys bringing them on a rafting trip or really any outing...chances are that there is going to be no signal at all and after the first day or so, the battery will be dead....terminated. If one drops into water or it gets lost, well, that's not my problem and it's a lesson for the future on what is or is not a good thing to bring. Personally, I don't use them because the flip phone that I do use will go for about a week of moderate use without the need to charge it. And if I'm not actually using it, it will 'idle' for several weeks. Plus there's no chance I'm going to become an addict.

So there I was, solo backpacking around Yellowstone Lake and it was after Labor Day and freezing every morning. I had just crawled out of the sleeping bag and was standing there in my underwear thinking that there's no way anyone could possibly be 'around' while I put on my clothes. And then, just at that moment a guy galloped up on a horse to ask if I'd seen a loose horse wandering around. So I just smiled, not quite naked, and said, "nope". And he galloped off. That was a great trip.

We used baker tents. Anyone know why they were called that? Today we don't use canvas. It is heavy and a major aspect I remember from the baker tents was: mosquito bites. I think that today's tent materials and designs are a great improvement. No nostalgia here, at least not for those old tents.

Thanks anotherguy, that is a great story and example for the rest of us.

Fred, you just reminded me of something that happened in my first job. I needed an answer to some technical question so I went to the boss's office and poked my head in the door. Several of the bosses were crowded around my boss's desk and when I appeared there was a frantic flurry of hiding some kind of document. I got my answer and pretended not to have noticed the latest Playboy opened to the centerfold. I stopped wearing Hushpuppies to the office after that too.

Actually, I don't see that THAT is what jblake47 is trying to do. Maybe I'm just not reading him correctly.

This is one example of the down side to 'local option' gone awry. This was a weak unit structure to start with and from the sound of things, it is taking a predictable path to a predictable fate. Let it go and find greener pastures. Find a CO that actually IS an organization.

'personal ken...' H'mmmm....I was thinking more in terms of personal 'Barbie'....

"Well the problem with that is how do you as someone outside a scouts religion or spirituality determine those things. Really the only ones that can make that call are the scout and his family. And what about the more esoteric belifs?" I agree regarding your statement about how this should be left to the scout and his family. But in reality I've observed that it seems very easy for some of us to judge others who have beliefs outside ours. That actually seems easier for them than to engage in self-examination. I have to ask, however, how would you identify an "esoteric" belief?

Make your own camping week. Make it real camping. Forget the merit badge courses. Make a base camp. Do some backpacking. Work on pioneering and scoutcraft. Perfect your cooking and knots. Play in a river. Explore new places. It's still possible to do this. It does take more planning but the good stuff isn't necessarily the easy stuff.

Also agree with KDD and bokris. Most of the time exhaustion sets in early anyway. They often WANT to turn in. Me too. Backpacking is great for that.

Eagledad, name the person who IS the right person to answer this. OK I'll name him. He is: kjmillig. The rest of us are free to offer our views and he will make his decision. The OP did state that he's Christian and that his unit has semi-practicing Taoist/Buddhist families. And he was uncertain how to approach this difference. That sure seems to be about his faith and anybody else's, at least from the way I read it. So...go ahead and expand on my history of opinions on this subject for kjmillig. Don't just imply anything, be 'brave' and state what you think openly for all to see. Go ahead.

Faith and Chaplaincy....talk to the big guy, lol. I have no influence. Edit: no influence: unless, of course, my wife allows it, lol

kjmillig, Just wanted to note that this unit has never had more than a small fraction of the boys from this CO...meaning: we've always had a wonderful mix of all kinds of faith systems represented in the boys: Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, UUA, Catholic, and most of the Protestant flavors. We've even had Sikhs and Jainists. The CO recognizes that if they attempted to impose a rigid standard of faith on the boys, the risk is that the unit would basically vanish. So the CO is available if any of them are curious or decide to explore the faith represented by the CO. In the meantime this mix is a great way to build trust and dialogue between faith communities through scouting's outdoor activities. In your case, it's possible that these boys and their families would readily embrace your faith and you could actively 'bring them into the fold'. Do you really believe that? Or...you could respect the wishes of each family regarding these matters. Your decision.

Eagledad, Friendly is something I observe and experience, same as courteous and kind...if I'm truly observant and mindful of the scouts in this unit. Besides I think I noted that I think they are NOT equal so your question about how I equate them makes little sense. Religious faith is something that the scout is free to show if he wants but if he doesn't want to, then I do not advocate an examination of his faith by persons who are not part of it. I have no prejudice against scouts having personal faith and personal belief systems. I am opposed to those of you who think they can judge the faiths and belief systems of those scouts and their families. As for 'thrifty'...I can see it now at the EBOR: BOR: "Well now, scout ____________, we can see that you've been active in church and troop and live as an example in every point of the scout oath and law except we don't know about how you demonstrate 'thrifty' in your life. Could you help us out with this?" Scout: "Yes I'd be glad to. See, I have plenty of money from a small business I've started so I basically buy most anything I want. I have no need of 'thrifty', at least not right now. And if I need more money, I'll take the initiative and responsibility to just earn more." BOR: "I'm sorry to inform you that in spite of meeting an exemplary standard in every other aspect of scouting, and since we consider 'thrifty' to be as important as 'trustworthy' and the other points of the law or even having a deeply held faith in a higher power, your failure to live up to what we think is the meaning of 'thrifty' causes us to deny your application until such time as you CAN demonstrate thrift in your life." Yeah, good luck with THAT. Edit: as for new volunteers....OOPS, my bad. 'Heaven forbid' that they be exposed to a variety of views on these subjects. ONLY those which you guys approve should be allowed.

And if we DO ask the 'god question' and he responds with 'Flying Spaghetti Monster', you're satisfied? The OP says nothing about Eagle. If the scout maintains that he does have a sense of reverence toward something in his life then who am I to judge that belief? It's HIS belief, not mine. Besides I simply don't equate 'reverent' with, say, 'thrifty', as you guys evidently do. To me, the reason there are 12 points of the law is that they ARE different.

In my view, the responsibility for upholding that part of the oath is up to the scouts and their family, not me. I tend to let private religious beliefs remain the realm of private family matters...and I don't poke my nose into them.

Wear the uniform.

Thanks JoeBob, for sharing this with us. I think it made us think about the situation, especially if we haven't encountered it before. Let us know how this turns out over time.