packsaddle

"I think faith is so personal that BSA should not go down this road at all. I think they should stick to camping, etc., and leave faith and worship to each child's own family to participate (or not) according to their own conscience." I agree. Thanks for explaining your feelings on this. le Voyageur, thank you for that description of Buddhism. I think the comment about BSA violated #1. I think AZMike's reaction violated #3. ​I urge everyone to take a deep breath and re-read the OP and the special decorum rules for this thread. Edit: I'm trying to maintain a sense of humor. Please help me.

OK, as long as we're into 'true confessions', I was born and raised a Presbyterian. The congregation was socially stratified with the captains of industry at the top, followed by local store owners, office workers, and finally the skilled labor and hired help. This social order was something that everyone quietly observed, understood, and never spoke about. Strictly white and determined to stay that way. I admit that for years I tried hard but in the end, I sucked at being Presbyterian. I guess I realized I was not going to remain Presbyterian sometime during college. After that, I drifted through whatever various women wanted me to drift through. I sucked at romance too. But I often thought about those early days and the Presbyterians. I never understood them until the Star Wars second movie and realized that Darth Vader was Presbyterian. ...sucking air sound..."Luke, join with me, it is your DESTINY" Anyway, it helped me understand a lot things that had happened earlier in my life.

Even back in the 60s my school mates who lived in a more urban area would comment something along the lines, "The 'Y' has a basketball court and swimming pool and we can go there any time we want and it doesn't cost anything and all 'you' do is go camping." I was speechless. I even went with them to the 'Y' for a while. The pool was great but I sucked at basketball. So I went camping.

"​Maybe playing nice requires more than just reacting to others in a nice way." That's the idea. Being mindful of others.

Play nice. How's that work for you?

Thanks for adding that Cambridgeskip. It's good to have your voice to explain a quite different approach. I was unaware of the changes you mentioned...maybe I haven't been reading carefully enough. From what I just read, Scouting in the UK seems to take the approach that I advocate for this country. I do have to note that comment about not liking authority, though. I think that is something we share over here. Seems that there was a rebellion or something, lol. Or maybe it was just a bunch of people who wanted 'local option', lol.

I'm just glad that we live in a country where people aren't killed because of their belief systems.

Well....sometimes you get what you ask for. Thanks MattR, for following through. I think you did a nice job of setting the 'ground rules'. The only potential problem would be if several other threads were started each with different rule sets. First thing you know, the moderators would practically have to have legal training, lol. But this looks great and I'm looking forward to your complete success here.

OK MattR, I follow your reasoning. So why don't we try an experiment? If you will start a thread within this forum and state clearly in the first post what the 'rules' are that respondents must follow, THAT will give starfleet, oops, I mean the moderators... the guidance needed to 'corral' the discussion and keep it on topic. How about it? Do you think that might be worth a try?

" I agree with SSScout, a forum to help each of us learn what Reverent means to others, in a friendly, cooperative way, would be a 100 times more productive than what we have now." MattR, and SSScout, I am ok with starting a new forum. I just don't have that ability. OTOH, do you really think that the same people who are in these forums are going to do the above just because the forum has a different label? Really? We have the option open right now to do what you described above here in this forum. We haven't. Do you think it will be any different in another forum?

You ARE old. That's a good thing.

This one went off the rails quickly so here's a quick attempt to get back to the original post: what if? If people stopped trying to judge the beliefs (or lack thereof) of others I suspect this would not be an issue at all. Every single one of us could have our personal beliefs without any requirement to 'witness' or to state them openly or have them 'approved' by anyone else. Seems simple enough to me. If someone signs the membership form, that's that. There is nothing in our training that says we have to 'police' the thoughts or beliefs of others.

We are so quick to stereotype and pigeonhole other people. When I was very, very young the neighbor boy was violent and malicious. I learned later that his father beat his mother regularly in front of him and his brother. Both of them ended up in prison. That family moved away and the next family was also in a committed marriage. He was an alcoholic and the mother of their four children fought with him almost constantly. This was not simple bickering but violently screaming so that neighbors four houses away could hear it through the closed windows. All of us were children together and sometimes the fight would erupt while we were all playing together. The impact to those children was devastating and the parents seemed completely oblivious. Today all of them are either in jail, mental facilities or else unable to function and on some sort of disability .[i am still in touch with most of them. Last Christmas I found a photo that I had taken of their family posing at Christmas in front of the tree. I scanned it and sent it to them. It was the only photo any of them had ever had of their entire family. I had taken such things for granted] Then after many years passed, I reflect on the lesbian couple who more recently lived across the street from us and who provided a loving and caring family for their adopted children. Those children are now at college and doing just fine. I have to marvel at the lengths we go to justify the sanctity of the one and demonize the other. Prejudice, ugly prejudice. OTOH, I guess if someone needs a transmission rebuild, marriage might be the ticket. Chalk one up for sincerity and honor, not to mention a strong marriage....NOT.

Sorry, as far as I know, once a title is established it is set in concrete. At least it isn't something REALLY embarrassing.

KDD sure has THAT right about making copies. But if those badges were awarded properly, as TAHAWK says, there is a copy of the advancement report (or should have been) that you should be able to get a copy of from the council. In the meantime, consider moving to that better program. Another vote with your feet will be good for you and it will send another 'message' to the current unit. Also, WELCOME to the forums!

Agreed. We have a really nice indoor climbing facility not too far away and when we go there, we let the commercial outfitter determine who can do what, kind of like whitewater rafting with a commercial outfit. The little guys do just fine if they can reach the holds. For the cubs, I insist that they are belayed by their parents. The commercial company checks all of them out and it's a good feeling to watch a 7-year-old teaching his parent how to tie a proper knot. Some of those little guys are almost like spiders...just scampering right up. I don't even have a distant memory......

I note the absence of mention of photocopying. We return all paper to the parents and make no copies, digital or otherwise. If a parent emails a scanned form, then that 'cat' was let 'out of the bag' by them. Not much we can do about it. Security is, and always has been, an illusion. BSA just wants to maintain the illusion. In reality, many of us will either fail to read or else we will ignore this admonition against digitizing. Technology, at least in this case, will not be denied and whatever nightmarish anxieties RichardB suffers from ARE going to come true sooner or later. What they need to do is 'Be Prepared' for it when it does happen.

"Somewhere you have to give back to your council..." Let's see now...how many hundreds, maybe thousands of hours, does each of us invest in keeping those units running? And just exactly what is it that we are getting from the council? I get the program stuff from the national organization or online. The whole insurance thing could be run the same way, no need for multiple, redundant offices in every state on the remote probability that that car wreck you describe actually happens. Oops, we've been there already and thank you very much, the BSA attorneys are quick to lay this off on others (gotta keep those premiums low). I see the camps as a plus. So let them run on their own. There's no need for the council superstructure just for that function. And with regards to this grotesque reasoning: "Council may be bloated and inefficient, but if you don't want to be a part of a BSA council, go form an independent outdoor club. BSA units are part of their council, and need to kick something up." I'd like to know that you apply that kind of support and camaraderie to your least favorite government agencies as well, when it comes time to pay those taxes. If an organization is bloated and inefficient, there is little incentive to become anything else as long as we keep 'slopping the hogs'. When a parasite has infected an organism, there are only two alternatives to death itself, starve the parasite out or continue to live with it. It looks like you guys are perfect hosts: you know you're being parasitized and you want to continue feeding them anyway.

I don't know about that, Sentinel, this guy is pretty cagey. No telling what level of spoofing he's capable of. As for that 2nd coming, that already happened too, just before the rapture...we're all left behind. Plus...you've convinced me...no coincidence at all. Edit to add: Almost forgot, Have a nice day!

If you're thinking in terms of rapture, that whole thing happened already back in 1996. But, on a lighter note, I have no evidence whatsoever that AZMike and Merlyn are not, in fact, the same person. Interesting, huh?

I think old goat music should be an officially-approved form of child abuse. Seriously, if I really want to torture the boys, I sing to them myself. All they have to do to make it stop is wake up and get moving, lol. 'brau, I'm not sure what you mean by 'really Christian' but if I get your drift, this is one reason this unit stopped attending those services as a unit. Individual boys are free to attend if that's what they choose. Interestingly, given that choice, few ever do.

Have to say that was pretty clever, NJ, don't feel bad about it. FWIW, that wouldn't work on me. I can sleep anytime, anyplace. It really irritates my wife...she'll be in the middle of a rant and then...zzzzzzz. Like I said, clever.

Jblake47, brace yourself. I agree with you. If he wants to contribute to the fundraiser by buying dinner or bidding on an auction, no problem as far as I'm concerned.

I slept in the back of a Ford Pinto with a girl once back when I was 20-something. Can't remember sleeping in a car since...ok, the sleeper car on the Southern Crescent but I'm guessing that's not what this is about. The whole car thing can be avoided if you hoist your gear on your back and leave the car behind, miles behind. Rain, under those conditions, will also teach boys about being prepared. Adults too.

Yes, welcome Woakus