packsaddle

So the question was asked in that 'other' forum: " Is expected community service or required community service really in the spirit of doing things for others". At least I assume it was a question...it didn't have a question mark...but anyway it is a good question for this discussion. My answer is that in a scouting spirit kind of way, service is something that we should want to do for the sake of doing the service. If it is expected or required, I see entanglements that make it something less than what we should aspire to. But if someone has other ways to look at this, I'd appreciate reading those.

LOL, I've had boys in this unit show up wearing some of the things you see worn in those images, They are great scouts by the way, wonderful senses of humor. At camp, I've seen adult men (counselors) wearing women's clothing and wigs in skits. If those guys showed up at the parade in exactly the same dress they'd fit right in - maybe not with the 'leather' crowd that you guys are using to try to shock people. Our church often had what they called a 'womanless wedding' in which ALL of the persons contained a Y-chromosome, right down to the flower girl. They'd advertise it and people from all around the community would come to watch. From other churches too. Great laughs and fun. Your problem is that you're completely hung up on sex, sex, sex. It's a sexual obsession and while I wish you weren't suffering from this problem, I do recognize it. I'm sorry for you. The really sad part is that it's not YOUR sexuality but that of other people. It borders on something worse than obsession. Edit: and before anyone asks, it was my completely out-of-character mad-cap wacky Presbyterian Church. Some things, I guess, are never meant to make sense. On the other hand, I admit the very slight possibility that in a really Vonnegut-like twist, it might have been their only opportunity to 'come out' without actually 'coming out', if you know what I mean. Maybe I need to take another look at those Presbyterians....so mysterious they are, LOL.

In a stylized manner, tied up, hooked like fish, led around like dogs or donkeys, running through the campfire in underwear, probably not what you have in mind though.

" How do those activities relate to transvestitism, bondage and domination...." Still laughing....I often see those things in skits at summer camp campfire programs...in some fashion, maybe not the way that creates nightmares for you. But really, are you trying to shock us with those images? Change our minds? Do you actually think that anyone else is more likely to change their mind than you are? Really? I don't mind the images. I see that stuff fairly frequently in real life. If it gets something 'off your chest' that's fine. Just sayin'

Heh, heh, the thought just occurred to me...there seems to be only one forum member who is so obsessed with this that he not only visits the sties with these photos...he also downloads them and shares them with us here.You just never know what things dominate the thoughts of other persons, lol. Makes for an interesting forum though. (BTW, I can show you similar images if you'll visit the local biker bar near my home...and I suspect [but I could be wrong]...that very, very few of them are gay...summer just seems to bring out the best/worst/whatever in us somehow)

jblake47, I agree. David, I can't disagree with what you just wrote but it does still beg the question, regarding this thread topic, what do you think we SHOULD teach them?

'Boxed in'. Interesting point. I often wonder why on one hand we often shout our desire for freedom to make decisions and choices and then on the other hand, go straight to the 'rule book' if someone exercises that freedom. Interesting.

RememberSchiff, it is just fine to expect fairness as long as we keep in mind that we often don't get what we expect. What I think we should ALWAYS expect is to be fair to others and 'true' to ourselves. And that doesn't require 'fairness' from anyone else at all.

jblake47: "I don't know if it is a cultural thing of the past or whether it was the place/family I grew up in, but I still today find a couple of opportunities each day to do a random act of kindness." Me too. As for the 'real' versus 'paper' good turn, this is to me a tough question about altruism. I think philosophers have not yet answered that as well...is there truly anything that is purely altruistic? I'd like to respond, 'yes' but without the ability to 'see' into someone's mind I just can't be certain. I know that when I do my first good turn each day, while I have no expectation of anything from that elderly neighbor, the good feeling I get from having done a nice thing is still 'payback' of sorts. I'd feel incredibly guilty if I didn't do that for her. But this is focused on a group decision and action. In the past, my cub scout den decided to help with a shoreline cleanup effort. A property owner, seeing us on public land in front of her house, was quite rude to us. If we had just walked away, that lake shore would have remained littered with trash and we would have gained...what? Our dignity? A good feeling for 'having shown her'? We completed the cleanup and I explained to the boys that she was probably just having a bad day. They understood. The only real 'loser' in that was the rude lady. dcsimmons, I agree. Things get a lot more complicated and what we thought was clear in our youth, we later learn to be quite complex. But WE had to start with youthful simplicity and I suspect that's where most of the boys are right now too.

The I&P discussion about the Vermont situation raised what I think is an important question regarding community service...but I would like to keep this question out of politics and more in the realm of what the scouting ideal should be. So should there be an expectation of some kind of payback or quid pro quo for community service? Should a decision to do service to the community depend on the presence or absence of some kind of unit or personal benefit other than the sense of satisfaction of a job well done or personal accomplishment? How does this question interact with the concept of 'scout spirit'? I will apply the fickle finger of fate if the comments cross a fuzzy line into the realm of political comment. Try to keep focused on scouting ideals and not the dirty realm of politics.

"Make me." Well that pretty much says it all I suppose. I respected OGE's application of the Godwin Rule, because I did understand his sensitivity on that subject and I also had the utmost admiration for OGE himself, as I do for others in these forums. And while I still understand the sensitivity surrounding this subject, especially for those of Jewish faith (and OGE, I think, wasn't, I could be wrong), I have never thought the rule was a good one, so I have never applied it. It's more like a rule in some word game. It doesn't make sense but it's there and players can use it or ignore it. In this case, NJ has noted Godwin's Rule (or law, whatever) because of the reference Scouter99 made to gas chambers and his desire for the city councilman to perish in one of them. I understand NJ's response and I suggest instead that while NJ might ask for an apology, and while some of the rest of us might be personally appalled at Scouter99's comment, I think we all have come to expect this sort of thing from Scouter99 and I, for one, am willing to shrug this kind of thing off. To me it is more important for Scouter99 to speak these things openly and freely, making his character open and understood by all readers. I need no apology. I am willing to let his vile effluent remain open and available for all to view. I think this is important.

AZMike, it does not. Here's what you wrote: "It's sad, but there were people arguing for admitting gays into the BSA on this forum who were insisting this kind of thing would never - never! - happen." At which time I asked for names, evidence of what you had just claimed. Note that your claim which I quoted above does not mention that it is your 'impression' or your 'opinion' or your 'interpretation' of earlier responses to this issue. It is a claim that forum members insisted that this kind of thing would "...never - never! - happen." And in that list of quotes you subsequently supplied I do not observe a single instance of such a statement...I know for sure that I never did. You're entitled to make a personal interpretation of statements but you're not entitled to put words into the mouths of others. If you have an opinion or an impression, by all means, please express it. But do not misrepresent it as someone else's statement if your impression or interpretation is all that it actually IS.

RememberSchiff, that is a testimonial to the character of your IH and COR. It is also what Jesus would likely do. The town council can't possibly learn from it if they aren't given the chance. But if as you say, the object lesson would not 'take' with the town council, it is still the right thing to do. Edit: I really miss OGE. NJ, shame is sometimes a rare commodity.

The 'brave' reaction by the troop would have been to shrug off the small-minded gesture by the city and do the service anyway - and teach the city some humility. They missed that opportunity to 'teach' as well as to 'demonstrate' the true scout spirit.

Who were these people who insisted this kind of thing would never - never! - happen? Names please, quotes, thread references?

Fred, I think, is correct. I also agree with jpstodwftexas regarding willingness to counsel other boys in the district. I can say that I never earned a single MB with a troop leader of any kind. All of my MB efforts involved me calling a counselor from the district list, mostly persons I'd never met, and arranging their agreement to counsel me on that badge and when and how to meet. Then my parents drove me to the home or other location of the MBC. Later when I could drive, I drove myself. Most of them were earned outside of summer camp too. Things seem to have changed greatly since then. I am on the district list of counselors for all the natural history stuff. I have never been asked by a single scout from any other troop to counsel them. Heh, heh, with respect to Environmental Science, the word is out on me for that one...I'm hard. I actually require the 'requirements'. Instead,.take it at summer camp where you can basically sleep while your high school buddy on the staff signs off on your MB. Fine by me. Things have sure changed.

Curious, how many times has this ever happened? Do you know of any examples?

Sure...it would have been far better not to have enough funds to cover expenses. NOT! If anyone complains that you managed to keep your costs within budget they need to have their head examined...or else they work for the federal government and have been conditioned to always produce deficits.

"This kid screwed up major, and we should be concerned about how to get him help ... not finding a way to give him a rare honor, he in no way deserves." I agree. Eagle is irrelevant at this point. If he turns things around it might become relevant in the future but right now his LIFE is on the line. Some badge or rank is unimportant in comparison.

"....the last of the scouting experience..." Interesting thought. I guess the last of the scouting experience IS whatever the last experience actually IS for most boys, Eagle or not. But....I'd say that what we're all doing here is closer to the last scouting experience for many of us. JMO Edit to add: I just remembered that last comment about some scouts exceeding the qualities of their leaders. Isn't this the goal, not only for the scouts but for all of our children? To be better than we were? At least that's how I feel.

He committed a crime. Perhaps a felony with the offer to a minor. He must confront this unavoidable fact in the legal arena. If this was in our area he'd be arrested and released to the custody of parents until a pre-trial intervention hearing can be convened...IF he's never been involved before in another crime. PTI works well in our area. I've seen a good scout stumble like this and then turn things around when the community showed they are pulling for him during the PTI process. But if the boy blows the PTI second chance, things go from bad to worse quickly. If he's smart he'll realize that he really messed up and be thankful for an unusual chance to get his head straight without ruining his life.

Well I can tell you I would for sure go for the zombie apocalyptic survivalist theme. It would be kind of like being an actual tea party member or something. (sorry, couldn't resist) Seriously, I think it would be a blast to organize one of those 'run for your life' events at a zombie camporee...talk about having fun!

PDC, I just moved this topic as you seemed to request in the second post. I would have a problem if someone used a photo of me in paid promotions. TCD is not a public figure and should have been asked for his permission before using his image. TCD, it is not a hassle. You just send a fairly direct statement of objection to the site doing the promotion, informing them of the violation they committed, and that should do the trick.

Perhaps Gordon Gekko was wrong?

As much as I hate to admit it, South Carolina has blesed the USA with more than its share of stupid politicians. Just a quick geographic note however: Buenos Aires is in Argentina, not Brazil. And we're not through with this numbskull yet He was elected as a US Representative, soundly defeating Stephen Colbert's sister. Character is not something we care much about in our politicians. As for the trail, thanks to that jerk, I cringe every time I tell my wife I'm going backpacking. The term 'backpacking' has taken on new meaning and I'm still uncomfortable with it.