packsaddle

TwoCub, in my area if you don't have a secure fence around a pool, the insurance company simply declines homeowner coverage, period (at least that is what mine told me). I suppose you can see that as a voluntary incentive but I suspect most homeowners wouldn't. Likewise, our church will be denied coverage if we transport youth in one of the old 15-passenger vans. Insurance company's opinion, not mine. Because of that, I suppose we voluntarily purchased a real bus in compliance. The insurance company simply considered both cases to be unacceptable risks. But back to the violation of G2SS...I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the assessment of the consequences of KNOWINGLY violating G2SS. I am concerned about local regs (not G2SS) that a unit might not know about or or might not understand because it hasn't been made clear. And THAT is where the legal opinion is warranted. (Nevermind the ludicrous image of liquid fuel training with empty tanks, in a council that doesn't allow such use, no less) I still would like to know if such regs apply selectively to council property or do they always apply in a blanket manner to all scout activities by troops in that council? But G2SS aside, the liability issue may remain even where regs are violated. I'm pretty sure that a drunk volunteer (in clear violation of G2SS) that injures scouts in a church bus while traveling on a valid tour permit will attract legal attention to the church and BSA as well. Little consolation that the driver will no longer be allowed to lead and may go to jail, those injuries are real and the deepest pockets (perhaps church, perhaps BSA) will tend to pay or at least pay to defend.

OGE, thanks for the sense of humor. But I doubt you can return US from the outer limits (or was that the twilight zone?). As my wife says, "thanks for the memories", or at least I think that's what she says, h'mm. I'll have to sleep on it.

Actually, my quote with the age 18 limit came from the G2SS. I presume that BSA is the source of that wording, not OSHA. And it is possible that I have an out-of-date rendition. Do I? My intent, however, was to draw a comparison between power tools with explicit age limits to un-named power tools of similar power and risk. But BW is correct, as soon as I find a Dremel version of the jackhammer I'll pass that news along.

Holy smokes, I seem to have ignited an argument (puns intended)! KWC57 gets my intent, BW. I agree that the genesis of the local regulation is an insurance carrier (KS, I'm curious as to which ones too). And I see your point regarding property damage. Liability is a different matter, though, and I would like to hear from someone with more legal experience...or insurance experience. As surely as my boys will turn an aerosol can into a blow torch, some boy, some time (probably an adult or a troop, too) will ignore a reg on liquid fuels. I'm just noting that fact of life. I have another question though, if anyone can answer it. If the council has such a regulation (and it clearly applies to their camp), does it also apply to their troops on troop outings? Putting the question another way, is it possible that the regulation only applies at the council camp? I guess I'm saying that is about the only place it could be effectively enforced anyway.

Ed, what BW says IS consistent with BSA's "don't ask, don't tell" approach to other issues. See the similarity?

"Chainsaws and mechanical log splitters may be authorized for use only by trained individuals over the age of 18, using proper protective gear in accordance with local laws." That "over the age of 18" part pretty much rules out most boy scouts. Jackhammers aren't specifically mentioned, but...keeping to the spirit of this and similar regs (the one on go carts, for example), I think that most tools with power similar to the above would be suspect. Your opinion is just as valid. Little matter, though, have a boy cut off a finger or a hand (or someone else's) with a skillsaw and then see what fun you have in court. Hang on to your personal liability insurance and have a nice weekend.

BW, Total agreement on uniforms. And while I understand the genesis of the limit on liquid fuel use, councils must also understand that troops and boys ARE going to use them anyway...in spite of any prohibition. >In the middle of the night we heard, "whoooosh,... whooosh,... whoooosh" and as the sky brightened over and over, we realized that the boys in the next troop over had discovered the white gas..and its effect on their camp fire.< It seems that responsibility for the real training in fire safety and liquid fuel use probably falls to the troop and leaders. I wonder if a council prohibition limits liability if someone violates it anyway and then gets hurt. Is NJscouter out there anywhere?

Well mine let's me use my knife anytime I want. What the...?! I think I just figured out why.

jbroganjr, Yep, I've heard a lot of those too. And I cringed when I read your rendition of the wood badge experience. But, just to lighten things a little, try not to be too concerned with 'dumbing down' issues. Or as my wife often reminds me (really often), when applied to males (especially those of us afflicted with testosterone poisoning) 'dumbing down' is at best redundant, perhaps impossible.

littlebillie, nice to hear from you. We've diverged so much that by now Jark is probably going, 'Huh?' but I have to say to you...sh-h-h-h-h, don't give them ideas. Actually, I've always been amazed at (dare I say it?) the Golf merit badge. You know how many golfers are struck by lightning? It's almost...biblical.

KWC57, Point taken (smirk, smirk). My wife (remember, the one with the flying monkeys?) gleefully likes to remind me that, "...after all, you're dealing with a bunch of MEN!" Oh death, where is thy sting?

H'mmm, that was a joke wasn't it? I hope so. In case someone takes that seriously, here's a rhetorical question. Are backhoes, arc welders, or overhead cranes on the list? But they do mention go carts. I wonder why they didn't also mention stud guns or blow torches. And...I notice they didn't specifically mention common sense, either. Failure of BSA to specifically prohibit something does not relieve everyone of the risk or the potential liability. There's that common sense thing again.

Jark, That jackhammer part really caught my attention. If the troop leadership is really that lax in their approach to safety, the council needs to know it because the boys in that troop could find themselves in a dangerous situation at any unexpected time. If you have already burned your bridges, the remaining boys in the troop (or at least their safety) might also benefit from a stiff note to the chartering organization. And save a copy for later, in case the family of an injured scout needs you to help their attorney with the punitive damages part.

Eagle74, 10-4, thanks again...I'm already on the prowl.

Yep, In that case BSA would be baffled by the raffle and perhaps a trifle stifled.

Saltheart, Now THAT is an outstanding idea! Thanks

ozemu, Your budget must be doing ok to use climbing rope. Ours is mostly donated. We get hundreds of meters of rope but not much choice of what kind (but most of it is really good condition). Colors are out of the question. H'mmm, I was just reading another thread, did we violate some fundraising rule?

DDHII, thanks for the link. That's very interesting also. My interest in this is on behalf of several kids who could have been scouts (one actually was) but wanted an alternative. They have friends who feel likewise. If this expands in the community it could eventually negatively affect our troop's recruiting. I know creation of the program was not intended to be competitive but, as we say in science and economics, competition is defined by the outcome.

Dan, I was taught the same thing about hats. And those baseball caps are practically part of they boys' bodies at times. I was actually hoping you could lay the uniform vs camo thing to rest for me. But if any professional scouters out there know the answer, I'd like to know too.

Ok folks, that helps a lot...I think. I'll take a spin at this but I just know I'm going to feel like some Russian general. Thanks though for the insight.

DDHII, Your response was indeed helpful. However, I feel I need to clarify one thing that I wrote. I mentioned the term 'competitive' in the sense that youth may choose to pursue the Congressional Award and the activities associated with it rather than to go into scouting. Such youth make a choice of one program to the exclusion of the other. However passive the mechanism may be, in this sense one program competes with the other for a resource (the youth).(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

scoutldr, This is a little-known award that is outside BSA. However, it is available to scouts and non-scouts alike. I very much like the inclusive nature of the Congressional Award and I am trying to get this started for some youth who are not interested in BSA or GSA. It is a great alternative. Take a serious look at the URLs listed earlier. It is my understanding that Senator Lott is a strong promoter for the Congressional Award in his state and that may explain the discussion. I would be surprised, however, if this was ever recognized by BSA, as they don't offer recognition for 4-H or other similar activities. And it does offer a competitive venue for personal activities and development.

shemgren, Are adults allowed to wear their Eagle medal? I thought I was only allowed to wear the knot. Does this apply to the God and Country award as well?

Sctmom, sorry, I've been travelling and I hate that I missed this one until now. Others have answered the last scenario just fine. As for the first two, I have been in those first two situations several times in the past. I tend to speak up on the spot and inform them of the offensive nature of their statements. It doesn't matter who it is. Most of the time the other person is very apologetic but I've also been called out. My boss didn't remember a thing and I acquired new respect from some of my coworkers. Sometimes silence is a terrible lie.

92_SPL, a small troop naturally experiences limitations that larger ones don't. For example, when doing the chartering stuff, there are some positions that a really small troup will have trouble filling. Not all of them have to be. However, as noted by others here, for the purposes of safety, ALL the forms should be filed correctly and in a timely manner. In between, there may be some leeway (whether official BSA pants must be worn as part of the uniform, for example, or other gear decisions). If you don't have very many boys, you won't be able to fill all the potential positions in the troop either. In such cases there is also some room for creative organizing. I think as long as the YPT and other safety-related aspects are covered, you boys can have some fun building the troop your way. And if that means more by-the-book, go for it. It's not a bad book. Just don't forget the fun part.