packsaddle

In another thread from quite a while back, I seem to remember that we can wear the actual Eagle medal, God and Country, and similar scout awards but we're encouraged to do this mostly for formal settings like courts of honor, as an example for the boys. The merit badge sash is usually a moot point, what with weight gain and such. I have never seen an adult humble themselves by trying. Edited part: We do routinely wear the OA sash (new, larger sizes) at official OA functions.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Eamonn, After I recovered from a dead faint, having read such a shocking term in this forum, I looked it up in my "Dictionary of Fancy Schmancy, Hoity Toity Terms". It means: dad blamed, dad burned, dag nabbed, carnsarned, infernal (from 'Snuffy Smith', sometimes pronounced 'infunnel' in these parts), doggone, darned, etc. with variants such as 'Gol-durned' (no lie, I'm reading this right now), sometimes alternatively combined with 'gosh-' or 'gawl', a variant of 'gol'. Dates at least 200 years back, probably much farther. Shocking! (as James Bond once said) BTW, Snuffy usually applied it as in 'the infernal machine', meaning, of course, the television. Ole Snuffy might have been simple but he had some good sense. Here's the edited part: Deep dark confession, my brother-in-law once gave me gold-toe socks for Christmas. Everyone made a big deal and I wondered why. It was over a year later that I figured out he was pulling my leg about them having a "left and a right foot design". They were all in on it. Even my children.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Bob White, I'm not sure I understand why yet but I think I understand your intent. I, for one, viewed your pronouncements as if coming from someone who knew BSA and policy very well. I may not agree with everything but I have learned a lot...and continue to. Glad to hear you'll still be around.

OK, last to find out as usual, I'm with dsteele...gone for a day and...Huh? What happened?

Marty, Your Rockies at Coors experience reminds me of a time when, our families having been stranded in Budapest by a winter storm (great place to be stranded BTW), my friend counseled me that..."at times like this (in reference to our nervous wives and families) it is best to merely extend the credit card with a smile."

Marty and Mark, I and my family went through all our old photos after 9/11 and sorted out the ones with the WTC, so many poses, so many memories. I remember that morning so clearly, worrying about my family up there, phones out, and later hearing from my teacher friends staying to keep schools open all night waiting for parents who might never arrive for the children. I struggle to this day for words to describe my feelings. Those old photos are somehow comforting, knowing that for a while, at least, there was another time....

Merlyn, anyone, something in that last URL raised a question in my mind. I hesitate to ask but does anyone know how many boys and adults have been expelled on the basis of religion? Cozza says that he gets hundreds of messages each year from Scouts who have been expelled, 60% gay, 40% atheist. Is this true? I suppose it would be too much to hope that BSA would make such statistics public but I bet someone there knows.

KWC, sorry but that song is as Presbyterian as a bank vault...or a cold, dreary, winter day.

OGE, good idea. BTW, I remember that third line as, "Red and yellow, black and white". That will be the tune of the day. Much better than my usual one, 'Oh I wish I was an Oscar Mayer wiener...'.

Glenn, I question part of your message, possibly because I didn't communicate my thoughts clearly. In my view, I (or you) am not qualified to judge another faith or religious belief if I do not fully understand it. Furthermore, I am not certain that such full understanding is attainable if I do not also hold that belief. Superficially, I might view a religious practice with disdain or prejudice until I gather more information. That, then, would be my weakness and it is a human characteristic shared by most people to some extent. For example, I know individuals who strongly condemn the concept of transubstantiation and the associated "receiving Jesus in the Eucharist", as I believe you referred to it. They condemn it as "ritual, possibly actual, cannibalism". I view them with curiosity but have no personal feelings against this ritual (whatever)...I obviously don't 'get' what they think. I do, however, see no harm in it (after all the materials start, at least, as vegetable). In my mind these individuals (only two that I know) represent a contradiction: they seem so certain about something that 1) does no harm to anyone I know, and 2) they don't understand in the first place. The concept of harm is where one huge gray area exists in my mind and that gray area is one reason that I hold that thought only tentatively. I am still searching for a better way to reconcile these things of faith. However, the concept of 'falsehood' is a much stronger judgement. I might have an opinion that some idea promoted by another person is false if it disagrees with my idea (no way!). But I try to remember that it is only an opinion until I see objective evidence one way or the other. Such is rare in religious matters (perhaps impossible). Therefore I mostly recognize the differences and wait and search for the answers. Setting aside something you don't understand is one thing, but judging it as false implies that you actually 'know' something about it. It is a rather final judgement that is difficult to attain in scientific circles (risky too), perhaps it is easier in religion.

Holy mackerel, OGE! I'll have to remember that one. Rooster, I think I follow your thoughts. And I had to check the copyright, yep, before '72. As for respecting the right of others to believe, I agree with you. And I also think that unless a person actually shares that belief, it is unlikely that they have a basis for either respecting or rejecting the belief itself. But I think there is another distinction that you and FOG may be thinking about. I have tried to sort out that distinction. The best I can do is that: it is not necessarily incumbent on me (or anyone else) to respect a belief held by another person if that belief harms or lends harm to other persons. Or to use a previous example, if the belief in a rock (sorry FOG, I can't shake it) causes no harm to others I respect the right of a person to believe such. On reflection I might even learn enough to respect the belief itself (the way I feel about Native American beliefs). Again, if I don't really even know the belief, how can I feel anything whatsoever toward it? However, if 'rock worship' promotes something that is harmful to other persons (human sacrifice would be an extreme example) I would feel no duty to respect such belief, especially its practice. Anyone else want to try to help sorting this out?(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

You know, at the Yorktown in Charleston, SC, they have a program where scout groups can stay on the aircraft carrier overnight. I wonder if there is a similar program for the Intrepid? Now THAT would be really keen! Mark, Scenery at Jones Beach? What scenery? All there is is sand, water, and a lot of people....Ooooooohhhh, THAT scenery.

Not sure about camping options, probably up the Hudson Valley, perhaps in NJ. Subways are good, especially for the group. Buses are another good option. Why not hike, at least for the short hauls...you'll see more of the city? I would also suggest Central Park, the American Museum of Natural History, many churches and cathedrals, Chinatown, and all of the really great food. They'll like killing an hour at Virgin Records too. Be prepared for long lines at the Statue of Liberty area and some others, also security checks depending on where you want to visit (no knives or similar items). Can't really do it in a weekend, I'm afraid.

There is a wonderful canoe trip, almost exactly 50 miles, starting on the Edisto River near Orangeburg, SC and ending at a convenient takeout a little over 50 miles downstream. It is a blackwater river and goes through stunningly beautiful swamps including the Four-Hole Swamp. But do it in early spring to avoid the heat and insects. There is another great backpack trip along the Pacific Crest Trail that takes in the Three Sisters area. My favorite spot (what am I saying, there are so many!) is Obsidian Cliffs just below Collier Glacier (the largest permanent glacier in the lower 48). Obsidian Cliffs is a solid mountain of obsidian. Walking along the trail is like crunching along on broken glass (I suppose, in a way, that is what I'm doing). A detour up one of the Sisters (I like the South Sister) is spectacular as well. Oops, I forgot to mention that this trail section is in Oregon. A good place to start is at McKenzie Pass in a huge lava flow, not too far from Sisters, OR. OK, I can't stop blathering this stuff, but it's also easy to do a great 50+ miler in the back country of Yellowstone NP. I did this back in 1973 on the back side of Yellowstone Lake. Around the lake with some side trips up mountains, etc. Great fishing too, at least back then. There's another I never got around to across the northern portion of the park as well. Maybe before I get too feeble. I'll stop now.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Mike Long, I would like to get some more info on that pepsi can alcohol burner contraption. Thanks

Augustine said that faith has no purpose if not to transcend reason. FOG, I think there is a large difference between an objective observation such as the shape of the earth, and a belief in, for example, some part of the 'natural' world as a deity. In the former, it is theoretically possible for you to communicate precisely the means by which you measured the shape of the earth and for another person with the same means or a better one to critically examine your observation of the earth's shape by repeating the exercise. I suppose that it is possible for one person to communicate exactly their faith to another using words or other forms of communication. I have simply not observed this yet. As for respect, for example, for worship of a rock (do you refer here to Native American reverence for certain mountains? Or to Mt. Sinai?) I suggest you refresh your memory, "A Scout is reverent; he is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties and respects the convictions and beliefs of others in matters of custom and religion." This statement makes no exceptions that I can detect.

mk9750, I agree with KWC57. My memorization of the Apostle's Creed included "...born of the Virgin Mary...". None of the protestant flavors I know reject this although their wording may differ. Here's the edited part: Mark, I also want to add that although you are free to interpret Rooster's words to mean that he thinks his faith (or whatever) is superior to yours, this is not relevant. Your faith is yours and, ultimately, you are the only person who can question it fairly. Neither you nor Rooster nor anyone else possesses an objective basis for either comparing or judging the faith of another person. You have your own faith alone, however you arrived at it, with which to work - and that is personal and incomprehensible to anyone else.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

"Good one, Eamonn", he said, laughing nervously. BW & littlebillie, Nice message!

Oops, I should have warned Native Americans to divert their attention. Rooster, just so you know, I am not offended. I do understand how a large number of other people might be, though. Many, many. I must, however, be among those who do not understand what you're talking about. Is "bogus faith" the only characteristic of "fly-by-night religion"? Are there other characteristics of "fly-by-night religions"? Or perhaps "bogus faith" is the basis for "fly-by-night religion"? How do I identify a "bogus faith" if one is presented to me? Again, if you could list some characteristics, that would be helpful. Are all "fly-by-night religions" associated with "bogus faiths"? Or the other way around? Just need a little clarification.

Ed, that is what I understand as well. Sauce for the goose, as it were.

Rooster, did you really intend to make that "fly-by-night religions" comment? If so, please list the definitive characteristics of such a religion. Do you mean, of recent origin? Should LDS members be advised to divert their eyes while you do it? I seem to remember your mention of Islam in another post. Should they also try not to watch?

Just to join in the fray (I really tried to restrain myself), I was raised Presbyterian. I consider Darth Vader to be the archetypical intergalactic Presbyterian (loud breathing sound "...join with me Luke, it is your DESTINY"). Just a reminder that BSA stated its objections to the UUA regarding their differences and words written in the UUA religious award pamphlet. Both parties agreed that if UUA removed the wording from their literature, BSA would consider the matter over. UUA removed the wording. BSA reneged (in other words, lied) and rejected their religious award anyway. Sorry, this was covered in another thread a long time ago. It seemed forgotten just now. This is the edited part. After thinking about the comments about other moderate (and evolving) Protestant flavors, the sequential rejection of this flavor and that (based on whatever BSA's whim was at the time) will inevitably narrow the scope of membership. And it raises again a question I'm not sure has been answered: Who has proprietorship over BSA? If anyone can be kicked out for any reason, who's going to be the last kicker? Who owns BSA? I would like to see a list of names (or THE name). Their religious affiliations would be interesting too.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

littlebillie, Interesting question. How many gay parents do you ever think will have their sons in scouting? I believe it is unlikely that they will ever achieve numbers sufficient to cause changes in program or policy, unless joined by others in the effort. I guess I'm saying that their future will continue to depend on openminded heteros' to make a difference, maybe in the longrun. I don't see much of a change otherwise. I do think change will eventually happen, because of a more open, tolerant, and accepting general population.

Yes, yes, this is delicious! And I'm interested in hearing a little more about communism being Christian heresy. Could you expand on that a bit?

eamonn, I think, ahem, you may have just a wee bit too much time on your hands. So what tune was that set to? I've been trying it on the 'Beverly Hillbillies' theme but it doesn't work there. Maybe with some changes...H'mmm, how about 'My Favorite Things'? If this was a scam (and it sounds like it could be), then the donor is the victim of a crime and it needs to be properly reported. Follow the money. If it was a check, see if it cleared, which banks, what accounts. Should be able to trace it back to some person. If it hasn't cleared, stop payment and let the chips fall. The local solicitor should be up to all of the above. If a cash donation, you already have some good suggestions on how to proceed.