packsaddle

Thanks for the good suggestions (I'm still a little confused about the Civil War history though). I really like the lock-in idea.

Bob White, you must have read my mind. I just had a discussion about this with the other leader today. AOL is not much of an issue for us, most of the crew is currently female. But you have helped a LOT! One thing I'm still not clear about, though. As I understand it, we need council approval for any crew emblem we design, regardless of where we wear it. Please correct me if I'm wrong. But here is the question, if we design our own unique emblem and council approves, can we wear it on the official uniform shirt? Edited part: Just read your message again and I think I get it now. The crew is still discussing designs and some of the suggestions are, well...I think there may be a copyright problem with sponge Bob. Are there any guidelines for design or do we wait for the council to rule?(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

This is dredging from deep within my memory but when I was a Wolf den leader, I did not allow them to use any power tools and I insisted on having a couple of other adults that knew what they were doing to assist the boys if they were using tools with sharp edges (planes, chisels, etc.). Things always went very well. I tend to err on the cautious side (when I was in school I saw another guy lose two fingers on a jointer). Some other leaders allowed greater latitude, not me.

Hey Gene, I've been on the McKenzie, from way up past the McKenzie Bridge area down to Leaburg Dam (actually below that but I don't count that part) from February through Sept. Great fishing too! That watershed is one of my favorites on Earth. I couldn't spend enough time there. August was the perfect time for your trip but as you say, it is beautiful anytime. But... We do most of the troop stuff in the Southeast where we're located. Nantahala River, Ocoee, Nolichucky, French Broad (yes, that's a river), Chatooga, many little streams that you don't hear about. The great thing about whitewater here is that we can do it as late as well into December comfortably. We rent rafts but a lot of us have WW kayaks so there is a mix. We also borrow canoes for lakes (never on the rivers). I know people who have made some monumental mistakes on the river and still lived to tell. One was right out of 'Deliverance'...oh well, some other time.

OGE, the one I can't understand is fugu fish. Figuring out how to eat that without dying must have filled a cemetary somewhere. From a website, "Some say the delicate chickeny flavour is the main attraction; others insist that fugu testes in a glass of hot sake is the best aphrodisiac in town; others are partial to the warm tingling and slight numbing of the lips (the pleasant symptoms of systemic paralysis and ensuing respiratory failure)." I'll have the carp, thank you. Rooster, my wife claims that salt and grease are Southern allspice! littlebillie, I hope you're feeling better...but to play it safe, for just a little while you'd better shy away from kwc57's hamhocks and beans. BTW, kwc57, I think there are a couple of other possibilities for the secret ingredient: molasses (maybe sorghum), or possibly some Blue Ribbon hops-flavored malt extract. These have often added a certain allure, a seductive sensation to the palate, yet not easy to place, like an old familiar sound or a long lost friend... kwc57...save littlebillie's helping for me.

I still vote to eat with cheffy's troop whether gourmet or proletariat. I have to ask, though - cheffy, in your current job do you ever think about Matt. 7:6 and the concept of 'casting pearls'? It could be a lot worse, you could be working for the airline industry. My alltime best airline meal: South China Airline, 1996. I have no idea what it was but it was really good.

I have great sympathy for your situation. I was left with something similar years ago and I agree completely with Dsteele's assessment. Someone needs to make sure the boys have continuity in their program and if you can do it that would be great. If you step forward, it will call the question and the tentative leader will make his decision, one way or the other. Either way it needs to be made. Please keep us informed, however, as to the assistance you get from your DE and council. Best wishes and good luck.

Wow! When I read Dan's message I thought he was talking about the pushy dad, not FOG. But I see I was wrong. Dan, we can find all sorts of faults in almost anyone if we look hard enough. OK, so FOG has some rough edges. Big deal! He has delightfully eclectic taste in food...except perhaps for nuveau cuisine, who can blame him? Look for the good, you'll find that too.

Now what was it that Gomez used to say, "Oh FOG, you spoke...LUNCH!" You guys are makin' me hungry, I'm outa here. Rooster, just a note, I think I read somewhere that autopsies on alcoholics almost never find any coronary heart disease. Not to suggest overindulgence I should add, but that would be wine, not grapejuice.

I doubt that the campfire is in imminent danger. We still use wood on most trips even if we have to bring it with us. However, I have no problem with 'leave no trace' but some of blade1158's objection may be a matter of degree. At its heart, I think, 'leave no trace' is an expression of the Golden Rule. People coming after us should be able to see a wilderness as it was when we arrived. No stumps or litter. Whether fire rings or latrines carry this too far depends largely on individual circumstances. I have no problem with that.

After my stint as CM, a similar situation arose that nearly killed our pack. Don't count on a DE for anything. That said, we have multiple packs drawing from the same multiple schools. Big time competition. The schools don't have similar event calendars. We try to conform, when possible, to all but we go with the majority where there are conflicts. 'Majority', in this case, is the largest number of boys committed to participating in an event, not necessarily the most from any one school. Go Braves! ...just had to get that in.

To my knowledge, we've never used the alternate requirements and no one has ever asked. I knew about it...I've just been too busy or too stupid to understand what it means.

It wouldn't have to be a political debate. Scouts could debate actual ideas which have opposing views. We do something like this to draw them into citizenship discussions. We start with, say, the school dress code. Lots of opinions on that. But to really debate it, both sides have to establish their basic ideas and understand why the concept of dress codes exists. Then let the fun begin. After that topic, they're ready for other stuff in the community like zoning, etc. I think it is a great idea.

Good point, FOG. And later, in Exodus 20:5, "for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me" and then in 20:15, "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God" Care to comment on that jealousy aspect? 'whose name is Jealous'??? There might be room for gods that aren't jealous? Yeah, right! You think someone might be holding a tiny little grudge? But I see Rooster's point in all this. If I interpret it correctly, he views restraint of public prayer as regulation. A different view is that official endorsement of public prayer is regulation. I think both views are in agreement in that regulation or promotion of religion by the state is prohibited - the implementation is in question. If Rooster is suggesting that BSA should mandate public prayer, he should understand the good reasons for substantial resistance. I know boys who take personal moments to say prayers. I consider this to be just fine. The rest of us try not to intrude. At the same time, those boys have no expectation that anyone (or everyone) else must similarly demonstrate their faith. I think this follows the golden rule and, so far, it works.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

FOG, I think I understand his outrage...it's almost as if you have spoken blasphemy. 'Make that chopped liver, Prometheus!'

Rooster, in our case, if the CO DID decide to promote prayer according to their flavor, only one or two boys would recognize it that way. Nearly everyone else would go along politely but it wouldn't necessarily represent their faiths and for about a third of the troop, it definitely wouldn't represent their faith. I further think you have misinterpreted some of the statements that have been made. Being inclusive doesn't automatically mean that some persons views are "oppressed". I am not sure how you drew that conclusion. In the case of the troop I serve, it means that a minority (the SM) does not dominate everyone else.

NJ, I agree. We are having our first Venture Crew meeting tonight. I think in some ways the best way to demonstrate our resolve and resilience is to get on with life. Don't forget, but don't let it stop us either.

Here are a couple more, FYI, hope you can all get to them. http://www.hq.usace.army.mil/history/Sep11_new.htm http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=17452 There's more at www.army.mil Peace.

I tend to agree that the program should include ALL the components mentioned several times in this thread. I would argue that all the others could be derived from 'Honesty'. The boys in our troop (the troop I serve) are quite diverse in their religious backgrounds. We use the "Great Scoutmaster" version for our closings. If the CO minister attends a COH, he gives the prayer of his choice. Although the SM is devout in his faith, he knows that to push expressions of his faith risks going against a significant number of boys with other faiths - boys who are some of our best leaders. There is a conflict here for him and he discusses it often. Although he wants to evangelize, his church also has a mandate to be inclusive and bring in youth from the larger community. [i think I have mentioned before that the CO has practically no boys in the troop] Therefore, we keep such expressions in the more generic format and try to avoid fracturing the troop. So far, so good.

Only ONE Issues&Politics thread active today and it's about...cooking sherry. I think the world is doing just fine. And it is good to know that here we are at peace on this eve. Actually alcohol has a much lower boiling point than water so if you really cook something, chances are there's practically none left. Also, just to add to this raging controversy, ever notice what the solvent is for many flavorings and extracts? Yep! Want non-alcoholic wine for cooking? Boil the wine for about 5 minutes in a wide frying pan. That should just about do it. Sure some trace will still be there but making yeast bread leaves a trace as well...oh well. 'What's that in that bread, it's gone to my head...'

A question, OGE. How important is it for the council to be supportive? What is the nature of their support? I guess I'm asking what it is that we don't do for ourselves? We're just starting a crew so I really don't know.

I quite agree with setting one's own pace. After all is said and done, my best trips have been alone.

10-4 KWC57.

jbroganjr, Way, waaaaaay below the Mason-Dixon line (Costa Rica actually) they serve coffee with hot milk to keep the temperature right. I hadn't so much as tasted coffee until my 40s and then on a trip to CR my wife said if there was ever a place to taste it for the first time, CR was the place. I have to give her credit for that one!

Wow Ed, that's quite a temptation...coming from a man of faith. Luckily, my doctor just cleared me today for eating steak again, I'm looking forward to it.