packsaddle

Wow, most of those sound like great troop activities (as well as temptations). Anyway, not including summer camp (often two weeks/summer) we have approximately 25 nights per year. The motivated boys really love it and they sometimes go with other troops as well. So the nights available increase when you include those. But the real reason is that the camping badge is one that they usually don't worry about until a couple of years into the program after which they've already accumulated quite a number of nights. What I didn't say is that I know of no boys who finished Eagle prior to age 17. They tend to drag everything out to the edge of the deadline. Edited part: Oops, forgot to answer the question. The counselors stick to the written requirements. We have some boys who start counting the nights as soon as they join but just a few.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Careful now. Application of logic (the second of the seven liberal arts) was condemned during the 12th century. Check out the life of Peter Abelard for example, "By doubting we come to inquiry; and through inquiry we perceive truth." If truth was simply found in scripture, such statements were heresy. Sound familiar? But less than a century later Thomas Aquinas created a synthesis of reason and faith. His tools were logical constructs originally formed by... none other than Aristotle and other pagans whose teachings previously had to be shunned because they did not know Christ. Where does logic come from? A better question might be: Why don't we apply it more often?

Nope, but it was interesting. We do nearly all of our climbing at the scout camp or with professional guides/outfitters. Can't afford the price of troop-owned equipment. Maybe we'll be limited to climbing walls in the future.

I think littlebillie was trying to present the argument for contrasting organizations to make a point. Ed, I think, sort of went along with that. I doubt that either wanted to compare BSA. But Merlyn clearly wasn't the culprit. Merlyn, the wideness thing, is that true? Did you do it? I actually didn't notice until NJ explained what to look for. How did you figure that out? If that happened for you, why hasn't it happened for others of us who are far more verbose on occasion? But it is interesting that it only seems to be this thread. Better things to worry about...lunch for example.

Welcome also. Dan made some good suggestions. The Scoutmaster is the best person to address this problem. You and like-minded scouts are free to bring the issue to him or anyone you like. As Dan says, try to keep the discussion positive and constructive. Other troops have weathered similar situations so it is possible to solve this problem.

Alpha, or you can put three persons per tent - and nobody will know for sure....

I paid $0.50 a week in dues decades ago when I was a scout. Let's see, I got 3 cents deposit on every bottle as I walked to the troop meetings... It depends on what is included (registration, Boys Life, postage?) but $20 sounds low. Edited part, You are talking annual dues, right?(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Aargh! Edward, should we slap 'im in irons and make 'im walk the plank? Or just admire his beautiful accent? Aargh!

KS, Around here it's common to put in 40-60 nights before the MB is done. Eagles finish with more than 100 (I'm envious). By choice, mind you, and considering your weather you could probably do similarly well.

I am not sure what conditions are necessary for U-Haul to retire a trailer but I would be careful. Things to consider are primarily safety-related. For smaller trailers the hitch and axle (suspension) must be in good working order. The hitch should be perfect, axle aligned and not bent, bearings and hubs in good shape. Safety chains and lights can be repaired easily, tires and wheels replaced if necessary. Unusual tire wear will clue you in to problems. You should check to make sure it tracks correctly. Beyond that the structural integrity of the compartment can be determined by inspection. For larger trailers, there are recent regulations requiring brakes. If the trailer has these, the brakes must be in good working order and this cannot be judged merely by taking a test drive. You will need a mechanic to check the whole mechanism stem to stern. Prices vary but you can easily spend a couple $K on a good trailer. I think they're worth it. NJ is correct on the parking issue. One outfit had theirs stolen and with it went the entire quartermaster inventory. They later found it (mostly intact) down a ravine. I suspect this is a common occurrence. Final note, there are state to state differences in insurance and registration requirements. Do your homework.

dsteele, does this apply to unsolicited donations? Sometimes during a fund-raiser (selling hot dogs or something) someone will just give us a $20. Even though we aren't soliciting, we don't turn it down.

Good suggestion. I'm interested in ways to 'disguise' aid to needy boys. Perhaps that is the wrong way of expressing it but I think you get the idea. My, oops, Our, oops, the troop I serve wants to maintain a policy that no boy is left behind. I'm open to ideas on ways to accomplish this.

I can remember when...(tooth sucking noises)...foil was hard to come by. Plastic bags were unknown, Elvis was scandalous, iron lungs were mass-produced, Melmac was just THE thing to have, and sofas were covered with clear vinyl (wait a minute, mine still is). We had a lot of fun with minimal hardware. It took imagination, you know, the pre-TV concept. It could happen again........naaaah! I'm sympathetic with littlebillie's basic idea and, I think, kwc57's sentiment. I'm not sure we actually need more regulation, though, than exists in a faithful adherence to the Outdoor Code, especially that "I will use low-impact methods of hiking and camping" part. And as for Bob White's humorous suggestion of leaving the utensils home, I tried that once. Went on a weekend trip alone and only utilized stored provisions (body weight). Did I mention that I tried that...once? A sleeping bag would have been nice too. My objection to all the foils and bags is the prevalence of the things I find left behind at campsites, not that I'm pointing fingers at anyone here. But after we clean up a garbage bag of foil, cans, and plastic from previous campers, I have negative thoughts when I see the same used by the guys. Yes, I know it's not fair, it's not rational. But I still cringe. I feel the same thing when I find MRE wrappers scattered around at military bases. My instinctive reaction is to waste your tax dollars picking it all up, not to mention risking stumbling over some UXOs. It's hard to do but we should try to keep this stuff to a minimum.

dsteele, I am very sympathetic (by the way thanks for the info, I learned much from that as well) because my office shelves (constructed from an old packing crate) hold up one corner of my desk which otherwise would fall through the termite hole in the floor (my chair DID once, with me in it). Your tax dollars are safe here. But at least I'm dry!

I concur with Eisely. Trailers are great for storage and for portability if you can get one. The only downside I see is that once you have it, there is a trend towards 'car camping' and away from backpacking. For some, I guess that's an upside.

Hey! Be nice now, I was just working up an apetite. But in response to KoreaScouter, it's a wonder I didn't melt the Dutch oven on that occasion. Good thing we had sandwiches. Edited part: deleted (it was mean spirited)(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

You guys are talking about wide stuff. What wide stuff? I see no differences at all.

OK, clear so far. One more clarification re: troop, venture crew. Can the system handle a young man from one troop also registering in a venture crew that has a different number (CO, troop)? Just checking, we're going to have a bunch of these.

Just a general note. I have noticed that BOR members who work in positions that demand time/cost accounting tend to make short, concise, summary questions. They seem to be conscious of the man-hours sitting at the review. Might be a good perspective. The other boys who didn't get reviewed might have made it this way.

NWScouter is right, you cross the boundary into Gresham without noticing it. The police department is free, I think, to decline United Way participation - I could be wrong. But local politics could take curious twists. NWScouter, are you the one located in Vancouver? Maybe you can keep us posted.

According to The Economist, he'll run and he'll win IF the economy improves and the middle east doesn't get a lot worse than it already is. I tend to agree. There's much that can happen between now and then. I'll know for sure after the election.

A Master's Degree defense sometimes fits in that time frame. I consider it excessive. I've edited this response twice now. And that's because I'm not comfortable with a strong answer based on the info you gave. I can see how some of those questions could take a long time to answer and they seem excessive. I would like to know more. There are good suggestions in the guide for boards of review. The review is supposed to be just that, a review, not a comprehensive oral exam. I'd want to know more about why the committee thought it necessary to do all that and why it took so long. Did he pass?(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

I will see if I can convince the troop to divulge it's 'trade secret'. In the meantime, I mention that my first attempt at baking beans in a dutch oven resulted in activated charcoal. Well...at least it was a place to start.

Ed, at the risk of playing with technicalities, I thought the significance of the Supreme Court decision was to affirm that BSA was a private organization. The decision to discriminate is BSA's not the Supreme Court's. But to try to address the discrimination concept again, here goes. It is my impression that Merlyn supports the notion that government (taxpayer) resources should not be expended in a discriminatory manner, nor should they be expended in a manner that supports discrimination by others. Some others of us agree with that notion. (Do you disagree?) The disagreement seems to occur at the second level. Can public resources be expended to support (subsidize) private organizations that DO discriminate on a basis that the government would not be allowed to? Or to put it differently, if the government helps fund private organizations that discriminate in a manner that would be illegal for the government, has the government supported discrimination? (done an end run?) Don't answer that yet. Disregarding the 'end run' thing, some of us seem to think removal of discrimination to a secondary party somehow excuses government's involvement. Others see it as something illegal and the courts agree. The principle is simple, if government supports (subsidizes) an organization that disciminates in a manner that would be illegal for the government, the government is (at that secondary level) illegally discriminating. The remedy is to stop the support (subsidy, government handout). The decision by a government to invoke that remedy is merely that. It does not prohibit BSA from continuing as before. Another way to look at it is that government subsidies are similar to welfare handouts. Because BSA discriminates in a manner that government is not allowed, BSA merely must pay its way without the government handout. BSA seems to be complaining as if it has lost a welfare entitlement. BSA must have known this would be the outcome of their successful court battle. BSA should accept their victory and pony up the private funds to keep the program going. BSA has entered the real, private world of the market and competition. BSA should get over it and on with business.

Yeah, thanks for the fire hose, Dave. (just make sure you don't use carbon tet).