packsaddle

Fat Old Guy, Thanks for the info on field stripping. Odd practice, wouldn't it be simpler just to extinguish the cigarette and then put the whole thing in one's pocket? NJ, you silly guy, and you thought he was using satire? GeBlack, I read the Lauren Colby chapters. That he compared his arguments to those of South African President Thabo Mbeki (who maintains that HIV does not cause AIDS) was particularly illuminating. But then the comparison was accurate. For example, Colby's opinion that nicotine is not addictive is based on some anecdotes (so he says, there are no citations) and no experimental evidence. Here's a pseudo-experiment. Stop smoking. If you are able to quit forever without further urge to continue, it will be further anecdotal support for Colby (plus you might live longer to pursue your quest to ban autos). But such pseudoscience is irrelevant. BSA has a policy on tobacco. BSA also has a policy on transportation. If any policy isn't clear then it should be clarified. But where I might disagree personally with some policies, I choose to follow them anyway because I value the overall program. I believe this choice is available to anyone attending a scouting event. You are free to make your decision as well. Edited part: OGE, I must have been writing at the same time, good points.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Of course the same argument could be made for many other day-to-day activities in our society. Such comparison would be better if done on a per capita basis. But point taken, I would love to have cleaner, safer transportation available. However, a ban on automobiles would obviously negatively impact our economy in ways that a ban on tobacco use at BSA events would not. The comparison is just a little lop-sided. Or do you disagree? You can help me out with some terminology here, though. I have read this several times now and I don't know what 'field stripping a cigarette butt' means. I have a mental image but I'm not sure it's correct. How is this accomplished and why is it important?

LauraT7, If you only had ONE night of camping per month there would be potential for 72 nights outside summer camp before age 17. More frequent camping trips sounds like the answer. As has already been stated, it doesn't have to be a troop outing - could be a patrol campout or like some of our families do, mom and son backpack trips. And like btps says, Venturing does count if the boy is also registered with the troop. There was mention of one concept I didn't understand, "cabin camping". Could you please explain the relationship between a cabin and camping?

nevermind(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

I just re-read our commander's memo. The thought occurred to me that maybe BSA uses vague, mealy-mouthed, or ambiguous language IN ORDER TO AVOID appearing military. But then I thought, you know, if tobacco users were simply more considerate of other people, this thread with its 4 pages and counting - and all those memos from colonels and generals about bad breath and gingivitis would not be necessary. Some thoughtless guy wouldn't just walk up to the trash can at my desk and unload a cheekful of gore into it. Smokers would be like Eamonn - they would think before fouling the air for everyone. And wording would not be necessary in the first place.

evmori, I just did the online thing. While I understand what you're saying, it seems clear enough to me that BSA intends for adults to refrain from tobacco use or at least keep it out of sight and in the closet, so-to-speak. Are you just messing with Bob White, or do you really want to allow tobacco use?

Eamonn, I don't smoke, never have, but I think your approach is an honourable one. That said, I am quick to mention during the first leader's meeting at camp, that if we don't allow the boys to use tobacco, it's only fair that adults adhere for one short week to the same restriction. They then ignore me. GeBlack, there's 2nd hand smoke and then there's 2nd hand smoke. I can sometimes tell when the car ahead of me has a smoker. That sensitive, yes. Does it harm me...probably not. But around areas where boys are engaged in scouting activities, even outside, I would ask you, as politely as possible, to cease smoking. BTW, one of my commanding officers absolutely prohibits use of tobacco products (any kind) within 50 feet of any common area (doorways, etc.) I have posted the policy throughout our facility and I see it at other facilities. I'll have to check but my understanding is that something like it is current policy throughout the service. As I remember, he has some stars on his uniform. Not sure about the USAF, though. I would think it would be similar. One example (without the stars): http://home.mannheim.army.mil/s1/Policy%20Letters/pm8.htm

I use the term 'success'. Seems to work better than 'victory' in scouting. Of course it's different for baseball. Go Yankees!

Think guys, what are you teaching the original respondent right now? Decorum, decorum.

"...Aunt Gerty's garters", EEEEUUUUUWWWWWWW! ...system overload...must revise image...retracting comment on gom jabar...perfecting image...perfecting image...signal no longer present... Daisy, Daisy, Give me your answer, do.........

bsat4jb, I almost forgot. "There are parts of Leviticus and the Torah that dictate methods of sacrifice and ceremony to worship God which no longer apply to Christians, or anyone else for that matter,..." I'll have to check with some of my Jewish friends to be sure but I think they would disagree with that 'anyone else' comment.

The answer: Yes, I do not. I also don't share in the responsibility when a family and their physicians privately decide to pull the plug on an infirmed relative. I don't share the responsibility when individuals privately decide to employ birth control for themselves. I DO share the responsibility when society of which I am part collectively decides to kill one of its members. To all respondents: SCOUTER-Terry has requested observance of decorum. I think it probably applies more to this thread than some others. Here is a suggestion: Instead of just stating your disagreement with my view or someone else's, explain your views in ways that tackle the hard questions. I am open to reasonable suggestions and welcome them. I also left plenty of openings. For example, I mentioned that I don't recognize a 'line' denoting the point at which life begins. As I understand it, my view on this is contrary to the view of most persons on either side of the issue. Yet there was no response to this observation - from either side. I should note that I hold this view not because I 'know' when life begins, rather it means that for lack of better evidence, and based on my direct observations, I assume that human (all?) life is a continuum. I'm the guy who DOESN'T discriminate against haploid life - I consider those cells to be alive as well (H'mm, reminds me of a Monty Python song). If someone HAS a good idea of when life begins during the reproductive process, tell me. Someone out there must think they know where the line should exist. Give me your reasons, your evidence. I enjoy learning. Like I said, just for example. Or is this too difficult? Otherwise, I assume that the Catholic Church is at least (as I have already mentioned) consistent. My observation about popular forms of birth control resulting in abortions is correct. Not a single objection to that has been registered here so far either, so I assume you all are aware of this. (another opening) And therefore, anyone so passionately opposed to abortion should also be passionately opposed to those popular forms of birth control. H'mmmm? And reject their use. H'mmmm? For the absolutists who do oppose and reject such, what is your decision on situations that threaten the life of the woman? Which human do you murder? The mother? The fetus? Both? Remember, you want this responsibility.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

dsteele, it occurred to me that my interest in this is not clear to you. I agree, in principle, with your intent and the intent of the reg. I just think the wording is unclear and leaves the regs open to just the sort of argument that you and poor Rooster7 have been drawn into. For the time-being I will avoid the gom jabar by accepting the regs, even if I disagree with something in them. However, the way they are written invites more such disagreement than should be necessary. I'm guessing that if laser tag was played with 'projectors' that looked like Care Bears, this would not be an issue? That would be ok, I like the Care Bears. A note on chess. There are at least two ways to view the play. One view (say, the Bobby Fischer way) is that each piece taken is annihliated. Another way is to view taking the piece as 'taking' the piece out of play, not necessarily implying death, but rather implying prisoner. It still is militaristic, though, and the analogy to Capture the Flag is apt. I suppose another great field game has its days numbered.

Adrianvs, thanks. For a few moments back there, I was just a little concerned for you. Not to worry, I have a thick skin and even if an attack is meant to be personal, that's ok with me. You know, sometimes that just seems to upset some folks more. Oh well.

dsteele, don't forget, I'm on your side for this one.

Fat Old Guy, Shhhhhhhh, 'They're' listening and 'they're' everywhere.

I've never heard of this. Tell me more.

matua, I had the same thing and an email to the big guy evidently did the trick. At least the replicates stopped (about the same time my hard drive crashed, not related). Ahem, you might want to backup your data. SCOUTER-Terry, As long as it's there I plan to continue to post on the particular thread you probably are thinking about. I agree with your assessment regarding the relationship to scouting. So if you pull the plug on that one, it will be fine with me. I wonder if evmori actually thought anything positive would come of it? You have to admit, though, we love to argue. And even THIS topic could morph into something weird if it continued long enough. typing from another computer in a far away place, Thanks. ..you load sixteen tons and what do you get, another day older and deeper in debt.

bsat4jb, Do you advocate following, to the letter, everything mandated in Leviticus? The Torah? Or just the parts you like?

Fat Old Guy, I think Adrianvs gave you the information needed to answer your question. Here's a view from the other side. The camp for this council essentially uses the same system he mentions (save for the colors). The scoutmaster is then aware of what the boys are supposed to be doing and is informed enough to counsel anyone who is not sure if they are prepared. Then at the end of camp, the scoutmaster is given all the forms, both completes and partials. When I do this part, I make copies for the boys and keep copies for the troop records. Invariably, some of the boys lose their copies. Keeping these records, then, helps avoid needless problems later. No one HAS to do this but I do. And I keep them until they are 18 if necessary. BTW, Adrianvs, it sounds like you do an outstanding job with your counseling. I wish we had some of that dedication for those particular badges at our camp. Thanks!

River2K, I agree with mk9750. The troop with which I am associated picked up a couple of mavericks from other troops a couple of years ago - boys who became disenchanted with the program. One of the reasons cited was the strict 6-month limit for completing merit badges. We took them in and now they are outstanding leaders in this troop. I informed them that all outstanding MBs that had never been finished were STILL available. That really helped turn them around. They got to work and finished all of them. I know the leaders who maintain these 'internal policies'. I also know their stated reasons: 'the boys need a reason to follow through', 'they need a stick as well as a carrot'. My feeling is, though, the leaders just didn't want to put up with keeping the records. I could be wrong. But I suppose I should thank them for the boys that switched to this troop. THANKS! Too bad it had to be as a result of a policy that is in conflict with BSA.

SCOUTER-Terry, 10-4. I agree on that topic comment - I've noticed the same thing. But in spite of what seems to pass through these areas, I haven't read a line that caused me to dislike anyone. Sorry if I've caused hard feelings somewhere. I aim at the ideas, not the people. P.S. It was Bob White, wasn't it, and that comment I made about him and the gom jabar. I meant it in good fun, really.

acco40, How does the military support BSA? How do tax dollars support the jamboree? This is interesting.

Shell in WA, USA, Welcome to the forum. In my experience, I would advise you to get a printout of the council's records for your troop and its current advancement. As I understand it, that record is what National will ask for if needed. My further advice is that you keep that copy in a safe place and annotate it with corrections, if necessary, that you identify based on the troop records. With regard to Eagle applications, the application and the council advancement dates must agree. Create your own spreadsheet for the troop or use one of the commercial products that are available for this. The sooner you reconcile your records with theirs, the better. Don't assume that their records are correct. If you find corrections, work diligently to get those corrections incorporated at the council level. Lastly, Good Luck!

Adrianvs, I hope you have a nice day too