packsaddle

Adrianvs, you had one statement that caught my eye, "Why couldn't science teachers (who may or may not have creationist training) teach the subject?" The answer I offer is, because creationism isn't science. I do support your idea of including the subject in a humanities course that examines a broad range of views in a comparative manner. Such a course was one I took AT A PUBLIC INSITUTION and it was really interesting in that it offered many ideas I had never before considered.

"...now don't tell me....I got nothin' to do..."

Ed, I'm laughing at a memory I have. It is one in which a friend, sympathetic to the voting laws of the time, tried to explain to me that my unwillingness to discuss my religious beliefs were in violation of the registration laws. Therefore I had excluded myself from the right to vote. They were not excluding me, I merely brought it on myself. (FYI, I ultimately prevailed)

Acco40, I agree that scientists are often wrong. It's probably a blessing to our forests that the wrong stuff doesn't often make it to print. Scientists are only human and have the same failings of any other human being. That, however, doesn't affect the qualities and potential of science.

KA6BSA, I guess the only connection I could conjure up would be to fundamentalist religion. Since BSA evidently identifies itself as a religious organization, therein lies (however weakly) the relevance. But if you tour the archives of topics past in this forum, you'll see that periodically someone raises this topic so we can all have some more fun arguing. Bon apetite.

Ed, The movie I was only aware of but I did read the book. But I am not clear about what the connection is that you want to make to that story. Adrianvs, I think BSA should be an open program. Let the program be inclusive of anyone who wants to participate, sees the value of it, and wants to contribute. Enrollment would be greater, fewer resources would go to the attorneys (sorry, NJ), and BSA could still have all their sweetheart deals. But no, BSA decided to exclude certain groups. They argued this right on the basis of being a private discriminatory organization - and won. This gives them the same status as other private discriminatory groups such as the Klan. Your contention that BSA is neutral toward gays is, well, fantastic. I think BSA knew that if they won they risked losing the support and status enjoyed by truly open organizations. In a calculated move they decided it would be worth it to go ahead anyway. Now people are bellyaching about losing the special status they once had. I could perhaps see this differently if BSA had not WON! It's as if we're pouting (after being allowed to eat all the cake) about not having it anymore.

Ed, regarding the last sentence in your message, I think it is clear that Merlyn WAS and IS a member of such a group. And he is now excluded by those...how did you describe them again?

Oh sepulchre! The story is not true. But the next question is: Did Lee Marvin really say that (pulling our legs), or did someone else create that as a fiction as well?

Whew, you had me worried. I agree regarding labels. I also agree regarding your opinion on science. However, I support 1st amendment rights to try to 'persuade' science to be something it isn't. Pure science is strong enough to resist this even if popular opinion disagrees. I think education is the key to resolving these differences and reducing conflicts.

acco40, Do you have a web site for this? I am interested in why you feel 'conservatives' would be opposed to this and 'liberals' not. It seems counterintuitive to me.

Wow, that one is so good I hope it's true. The date of the landing and his age are causing me to wonder, though. Can anyone confirm this?

Captainron14, I would like to respond to your repetition of Big Dog's question. Although I don't pretend to know Merlyn's inner thoughts or pleasures, I also acknowledge that, whatever they are, I consider them irrelevant to rational argument on this topic. I believe that Merlyn has not questioned personal features of your life nor has he questioned personal features of Big Dog's life. Nor should he. He merely adds a sharp, critical view to this forum - one that often causes discomfort among some of the respondents. I for one enjoy most of his contributions, even when I disagree. To me, whether he is angry or jovial is not relevant to the ideas he proposes. But this is just my personal view.

"...resistance is futile..." I heard lots of jokes like this way back in high school days. They were mostly aimed at blacks (back then referred to as n------)and Jews, sometimes gays (referred to as 'queers' then). Although I understood the jokes, I didn't get them then...or now. Incidentally and somewhat ironically, when I would wear my Scout uniform to school, the 'queer' jokes were the ones aimed at me. Anyone who enjoyed the original joke in this thread should also enjoy the unexpected twist I just mentioned. But I admit it wasn't the side-splitter that the original was. Adrianvs, if Fat Old Guy decides to start slugging I suggest that we all just outrun him.

bsat4jb, As Fat Old Guy says, that was the pen name of James Alfred Wight who was, in fact, a veterinarian. But again as FOG says, the stories are not strictly autobiographical but rather borrow from his experiences. Still a great series, though. I just heard that Keeshan was formerly a Marine, evidently quite accomplished in a number of other pursuits. When asked how he could do all that AND have a family, he replied that he doesn't watch television. What a great guy!

rlculver415, What preparations did you make and how did you get your troop out to Oregon? I would love to take the guys out there but we flinch at the cost. For the same money I could take them to Costa Rica.

Agreed. The theme song is one of those tunes that stays with you the whole day. I always wondered why he didn't just hang up the keys instead of walking around jingling them. But I guess my time was back with a radio show called, I think, 'Gill Who Mahoney and his magical leprechaun band'. Later it was Andy Devine's Saturday morning TV show. I can still hear him saying, "Pluck your magic twanger, Froggie!" Those memories really stick with a person. Edited Part: Eamonn, One of my all time favorite shows was a UK sitcom, 'All Creatures Great and Small'. Thought you'd like to know.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Edited part: I just saw Adrianvs's note. I am just repeating what I heard from Pat Buchanan regarding the election. He was the first person I heard to say Gore was robbed. What a sweet guy. OK, On topic. I really like Iowa. The rolling moraines, an occasional drumlin field, some kettles, climax forest of corn...and a few natural lakes. There's one that I like especially, Lake Okoboji (west and east) in the NW corner. It is a resort area but there's also a field biological station, Lakeside Lab, that is dear to my heart. Not to mention, of course, midnight beer and vegetable cheeseburgers at Miller's Bay Store. It's not too far from Silver Lake and there are several fens in the area. Just to the north is the MN border and some reasonably convenient bars for those Sunday afternoon thirsts. My favorite road sign: "Slight Bend Ahead in Road", written for persons used to driving in straight lines. Great state.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

I second Twocubdad's thoughts. I think going OoC is just fine and the boys seem to really like it. Letting the magic of the free market work should indeed provide both the carrot and the stick for the camps. Camps with greater merit will be the choice and others will improve or go away. Great approach!

OK, politics seems to have been forgotten so I predict: The felines will devour the patriots, pausing only occasionally to cough up a wayward feather. Back to topic: I voted for Nixon (twice), Ford, Dole, and Bush (the first). Today I support any Dem who gets the nomination over our coke-snorting, drunk-driving, budget-busting liar who only won the election in the Supreme Court.

Former cubmaster. I made all the mistakes near the beginning but the pack did OK in spite of me. When my son eventually left for boy scouts, I stayed on a couple of years to provide continuity. I informed a small group of prospects of my intentions and gave them two years to get their affairs in order. The next guy turned out great. There's always an element of chance or luck and it helps to have a larger stable of prospects. It's good to have new people and new ideas coming through and even though I really enjoyed the cubs (I'd do it again) it was good for the pack to have the new leaders.

Ed, take a look at this source: http://www.buddhistinformation.com/buddhist_attitude_to_god.htm I have clipped in a teaser... "Buddhism is unique amongst the religions of the world because it does not have any place for God in its soteriology. Indeed most Asian religions (with the possible exception of some extremely devotional forms of Hinduism) are essentially non-theistic, in that God does not occupy the central place that is accorded to him in monotheistic religious traditions. But Buddhism goes beyond most of these other religions in that it is positively anti-theistic because the very notion of God conflicts with some principles which are fundamental to the Buddhist view of the world and the role of humans in it (see section "The God-Concept and Buddhist Principles" below)."

I think Adrianvs is on track here with some good suggestions. I could see this youth questioning religious ideas...but to KNOW positively that there is no god is unlikely. The youth may well be using the term 'atheist' for lack of a better descriptor. This is one of the concerns I have regarding the whole topic of faith. One person simply cannot know what is in the heart or mind of another person. We merely have spoken or written words of expression and so often those are inadequate (a glance at most of the discussions in these forums should be convincing enough). Therefore I think we should not be so quick to judge (or eject).

Thanks acco40, for saying part of what I wanted to say about the religion police (my term is 'faith nazis'). I add to the rhetorical questions: How will his exclusion benefit the crew? What benefit to him? On the other hand, while I agree that the leader has no mandate to set goals for the crew, the leader is allowed to inform them of potential goals. If he merely stated an opinion in a manner similar to the original post, he isn't prohibited from that. I have heard other leaders make similar statements and after brief conversations regarding the multiple faiths in their units, they agreed that individuals should make those decisions for themselves. Fair enough.

Just a comment on the concept of 'traditional'. Sometimes I think some persons like camping because it gives them an excuse to buy a lot of specialized equipment. But there is another extreme that, to me, seems closer to a 'traditional' style. I am aware of a wilderness program in which the youth are given a really good sleeping bag, and a standard foam pad. They have to build their own pack frame from tree limbs strapped together with leather straps. They cook directly on the fire or using old tin cans and they have to carve a spoon from wood to use as a utensil. They have no matches and if the fire goes out they must rekindle it using sticks and friction (bow and spindle). They spend many weeks without a break in summer and winter (and it gets really cold there) without a tent, just a piece of blue plastic. They pack up and move every 2-3 days. And they do great. To me, that is closer to traditional camping. They are awesome.

Fat Old Guy, I agree that greater enforcement is needed but that will not address every need. The serial number for an automobile is similar, it has to be there and must not be removed or altered. Big deal. It is left to the firearm manufacturer to determine the quality of materials, manufacturing tolerances, or safety features, or lack thereof. Less subject to regulation than a beany baby. My experience is in agreement with my ATFE buddy who has just assured me that in my state as well as surrounding states, if I (or any other gun owner) wish to sell to another individual, there is no requirement other than an agreement on the price. There is no requirement to ask the person's identity, residence, nor criminal background for that matter. It is merely cash and carry. No wait. I observe large numbers of this type of transaction at flea markets, etc. There is no regulation that I can detect. My most recent purchase, through a FFL dealer, took 15 minutes. I left with the weapon and plenty of ammo. I suppose I still pass the instant check but there certainly was no 'cooling off' period. I purchase components and ammo through the internet, no questions asked. And only a transfer fee for the actual firearm through a FFL agent. I merely believe that I should be held to a greater level of responsibility than currently is required. And the same for other owners of firearms.