packsaddle

Bob White, I said something like this in another thread but it is worth repeating. I personally observed racism by both volunteer and professional scouters in the past - it was a long time ago. However, I can still detect elements of this occasionally today, not among the pros though. I agree with you that BSA never explicitly supported racism, at least not that I have been able to discover. However, I am convinced that in the past BSA turned a blind eye to the racism of leaders (volunters and pros) and to me that amounts to an implicit nod. I think huge progress has been made and I believe that anyone who does this today will be "shown the curb", to use your terminology. But it did happen in the past.

Hunt, in response to the message cut-off problem, I have noticed the same thing at certain times of day, or at least it seems that way. I resolve it by copying my message (Control-C) prior to sending. Then, if it is cut off I edit the message by deleting the partial and pasting the whole thing back to the edit. This sometimes must be repeated. So far I haven't discovered a better approach. Everyone, sorry for the digression from the topic, remember to be nice.

The way I sort this out is to acknowledge that the program - or the charter (bylaws, etc.) of an organization may write exclusionary language without explicitly vilifying a person or group. However, members of that organization may, as a result of their personal interpretation of the exclusionary language, vilify a person or group. I have personally witnessed scouters (both volunteers and professional) vilifying atheists and homosexuals. In the past I also witnessed them vilifying minorities and I continue to see remnants of this as well. From the perspective of the person or group being vilified, I understand the natural tendency not to make this distinction. And from the perspective of third parties in the public, the appearance is similar to that experienced by the vilified person or group. I have often been informed that from the PR perspective, appearance has the effect of reality. Problematic, I think.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Bob White, "In the unit you serve is a scout ever asked to site examples of how he lives by the Oath and Law?" Yes "For instance is he ever asked how he is helpful, or how he is trustworthy?" Yes "What about Reverent, or is that simple passed over?" No "Is he asked about his oath to help others at all times?" Yes "Is he asked how he performs his duty to God or is that bypassed?" Yes/no (you actually asked two questions at the same time.) "What activities does the unit do to help others at all times, or to keep the scout physically fit?" Service projects, physically active outdoor and indoor activities. "What about his opportunities to do service to God?" Please clarify your understanding of service to God...as opposed to a church or similar organization. "You say he just has to sign the application and can change his mind anytime. What exactly do you mean by that?" Signing the application, I believe, is an explicit agreement with the rules of the organization. They are free to quit at any time. Rooster7 made an insightful observation in another post somewhere in which he observed that one person cannot know what is in the heart or mind of another person. I am suggesting that if a boy is interrogated carefully as to his success at meeting this aspect of the program, most of what will be detected are his activities. His thoughts will remain unknown to the interrogator regardless of any opinion the interrogator forms. I simply recognize this reality and offer encouragement to the boy to do the right thing regarding his faith, as determined by his family. I feel that the family has priority in such matters. Perhaps you disagree. Does this answer your question?

firstpusk, it was clear to me. NJ, thanks for that piece of research, it was illuminating. As I implied (but didn't make clear earlier) many of these conflicts are needless. We resolve them by allowing parents and families take the primary role in the matters of faith for their children. The BSA requirement is fairly simple. The signature on the application amounts to a simple check-off, yes or no, to the question of reverence. We see no need for further interrogation of a boy's faith by troop leaders... or BSA for that matter. The boy (or his family) is free to change his status at any time. In this context, the interpretation of 'reverence' is left to those whose 'reverence' is in question. I think that allows the broadest possible application of the policy and is fair enough. While it doesn't answer the specific questions that some (including me) have occasionally raised regarding the policy, it does serve as a pragmatic solution in application.

I am curious. How does one 'teach' religion 'by example' if not through its practice? As a parent and an observer of scout parents, if any leader in this troop began to 'teach' religion beyond customary practices by the leaders such as giving thanks at meals or a Sunday devotional, they would be (and have been in the past) met with strong objections. The reason is that the troop is quite diverse in religious backgrounds, and the parents are quite determined to raise their children as THEY see fit. The CO only has a couple of the families in the troop and the vast majority are from other churches and faiths. Any religious observance we choose will be as non-denominational as possible. This issue has arisen in the past and after a review of the lack of credentials possessed by the 'teacher' in the subject, as well as the negative reaction by some of the parents to what they see as usurping their responsibilities to their families, the idea of going beyond our current practice has been shelved indefinitely. I strongly support that decision.

I think that a good way to explore the possibilities is to find and join a unit as an assistant leader. I'm not sure how GSA does things but this would give you a chance to get the proper training and to learn about the program prior to taking on responsibility for a troop. Try to keep in mind that the Eagle rank does not automatically bestow leadership and wisdom. On the other hand, I know a couple of adults that overcompensate for their failure to complete the Eagle rank, making their leadership a personal quest as opposed to doing it for the troop. I constantly ask myself, "Does this conform to the program? Is this the best thing for the boys?" Good luck and have fun.

Oh...my....god!

What is the 'polar bear swim'? We're not talking about ice bergs or anything are we?

I'm having some difficulty understanding what her objection is, especially the intensity of it. Can you elaborate?

I successfully resisted this for long enough. I have personally seen a nasty cut as a result of a sheath knife thrust wrongway through the sheath. The perp and the victim were both adults. They were also married (this leads into a really good story, for another time). I doubt that this was the only time in history for this type of accident, but I could be wrong. I think Bob White is being reasonable on this topic. His manner is direct and he is very stubborn...Not always bad qualities. When I was a scout, I purchased an official BSA sheath knife and I carried it all the time on outings. I think I still have it in a box somewhere. Obviously they were OK back then (Sure, it was a long time ago). But a few years later, I stopped using it because it was practically useless for most of the things I needed to do with a knife. Furthermore, the metal was slightly better than aluminum for holding an edge. To me, one annoying thing about sheath knives and similar items is that they seem to get lost fairly often and the 'status' they impart adds to the distress when we leave the lost item behind. I find quite a few Swiss Army knives on the trail, perhaps the result of a similar malady. But once in a while this troop has a boy who feels the need to bring a 'survival' or some other type of sheath knife on an outing. I try to make sure it doesn't leave the sheath unless for an appropriate purpose and handled safely. I also apply this to folding blades. I agree that sheath knives are OK in principle. But, like all sharps, they must be handled properly, safely, and for the purposes for which they were intended. It just seems that very few of those purposes ever arrive on our camping trips. And I think we have never had a serious injury. Except for the boy who crawled over a fire ant mound at night while playing a game, but that's another story.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Hunt, if expressed in the manner you describe I might agree. However I implied that there are several ways to teach. In one of these, information is supplied as facts to be digested by the students. Some of this is unavoidable to save time. However, the part of teaching I am addressing is the part where the instructor poses situations to the students in a manner that allows them to discover knowledge for themselves. This is not simply knocking down straw men (which is what, I think, you describe - and what seems to pass as critical examination in many of these forums). In this approach they are supplied with critical questions, in a sequence that allows them to efficiently build a logical structure for themselves. It not only allows them the feeling of discovery but it also allows them the freedom to charge off in directions of their choice, subject, of course, to the critical examination of the rest of the class. Yes, sometimes a few feathers get ruffled, no harm done. No, I don't normally teach topics that have much to do with evolution. I merely ask the questions and attempt to keep the herd in an agreeable mood. FYI, the comp. anat. guy didn't teach some other aspects of biology because 1) he didn't want to, and 2) he didn't actually understand them well enough, by his own admission.

I'm envious. Go to the NPS web site and get the phone numbers for HQ at Mammoth. Call and talk to a person to get the latest info on availability. A lot depends on when you plan to be there. If you merely check your backpacks through baggage you can spend weeks in the backcountry and you won't have to rent anything. But you can get stuff in Jackson if necessary, supplies in the park (but they're expensive). All in all, not a bad way to travel. From experience, a week circling Yellowstone lake in the backcountry. Another week or so in the north, perhaps crossing the center, perhaps exploring the northwest areas. I could spend years there. Have fun.

Proud Eagle, every institution with which I have been associated assigned lecture rooms based on enrollment, schedules, etc. Faculty were able to request lecture times but nothing was guaranteed. I guess that my laboratory classes would be the exception but those posters would more likely be filaria-infested giant testicles or microscope diagrams...much more interesting than Che. If my lecture room had a poster of anything in it, it would be pure chance and I know of no student who would associate it with me. For that matter, not any other faculty member either unless they saw the person who posted it. I suppose at some smaller schools the faculty have their own lecture rooms but I have never had the pleasure. Hunt, your point is well-taken and some teaching styles may well suffer as a result. However, I often employ discredited (opposing) theories to demonstrate critical methods. And sometimes as a source of comic relief. Creationism is a topic that evolutionary biologists should want their students to understand (without wasting too much time on it) because that awareness is critical to understanding the difference between science and faith-based belief. The primary cost is lost time from the intended subject and if all discredited ideas had to be presented you would be quite correct. An enormous amount of time would be wasted. However, I am trying to think of a field where employing a few opposing ideas to teach is not appropriate. Maybe religion? I knew a comparative anatomy professor who really knew anatomy. He was a creationist. Was he competent to teach anatomy? I think so. Evolution? Definitely not. Finally, Proud Eagle, I have probably heard most of those stories. I am still waiting to meet the persons who actually had most of those experiences. I don't doubt that some thread of truth exists in them but a better approach would be for a person to act on what they have experienced directly, not on rumors that may or may not have merit. As for dress codes, I am sympathetic to your idea. However, as students are there to become professionals, I would require such code to apply to all, faculty and students alike. Fine with me.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

FOG, let's see....long, swelteringly hot days, a bucket of water for every two boys. Oh, yeah, that's it - they're clumsy. Ooops! "OK, you guys need to refill those buckets when you're done!"

A specific question: When this council merges with an adjacent council, does this troop have to change its number? Or can we keep it?

Bob White, Thanks for explaining and clearing that up...I think. At least now if there is confusion, I'll know it's almost by design.

We have sand AND water buckets for each. The West Nile virus thing isn't really much of an issue unless you leave the water standing for longer than the insect's life cycle. In my experience, the life span for a bucket of water near a tent is measured in hours, not days. Sand seems to last longer though (maybe a source of sand trout virus).

I believe that each council has (perhaps had) a set of numbers that are (were) unique only within that council. I'm not sure about the new numbering system, though. Perhaps one of the pros or someone could explain in detail.

In spite of disagreeing with many of his policies and actions, I agree that he stands out as one of the great ones. I was always comforted by the fact that he was fundamentally honest and well-intended, a nice guy. My sympathy to his family.

To answer Trail Pounder's questions: 1) Yes. There are many thousands of options, student's choice. 2) Why do those things matter, as long as the student is free to question them and reject or accept on their merits? If Trail Pounder considers the ABOR to be important, then hair color or length should have no relevance whether for a faculty or a student. I consider it none of his or my business (FYI, mine is short but getting a little gray - since this seems to be of such importance). The presence of posters of Che Guevara does what to stifle free exchange of ideas?

I was intrigued by the wording of the post until I read the link and realized they were essentially the same. But after reading the ABOR, I see nothing to disagree with strongly. Personally, and although I do understand the rather complex reasons for the institution of 'tenure', I support the abolition of that institution. But I am not rock solid in this opinion and I could, on reflection, modify it. At any rate, my view would probably be labeled 'conservative' or 'right wing' by most persons conversant with academia. As to the dominance by 'the left', the institutions with which I have been affiliated certainly have not been so dominated. There are, perhaps, certain fields or departments in which this assertion could be true but certainly not the sciences (my area) and certainly not engineering or similar areas of inquiry. All of the institutions with which I have been affiliated have done a good job, in my opinion, of meeting the principles of the ABOR. Finally, the student bodies that I have known have been, if anything, dominated by a conservative view that reflects the populations of their origin. I personally care nothing of a student's political views as they are not relevant to my field. I do require, however, that a student who expects to excel be prepared to exercise a critical eye toward ideas and be prepared to accept fair criticism, admitting mistakes where they occur. And very many students have met this standard, to my great enjoyment. I think it is a mistake to attempt to characterize a student body in general terms. Every student is an individual with individual traits and talents - and views. Some excel, some don't. I could not begin to predict, when they enter, which will be which. It's largely up to them. I wish them all success. Just a personal view. (This message has been edited by packsaddle)

gsmom, great link!

NJ, ditto. hee hee hee hee.....

The pack and troop for this CO have their own bank accounts and treasurers. There are no concerns about carry-overs and such.