packsaddle

In the given example I can't say for certain what the boy feels about the ordeal (the source of his discomfort) but it is clear that something about it bothers him. For want of a better term to apply to it, to me the answer could be 'YES', at least in the boy's view. Perhaps andrewcanoe can provide more detail.

I'm not sure what is the source for the 'Ed vs. world' thing, but if you set emotion aside, I think Ed has a legitimate question. Andrewcanoe gave an example of a boy who quietly limits his own potential in order to avoid what he perceives as an undesirable situation. He could be an expert camper, be elected, and deserve recognition, and yet he would not get the honor because of his perception of one of the requirements. Remember, it is his perception as the recipient of the treatment, not the perception or intentions of the rest of us, that counts. I think it is OK to disagree on this. But a constructive dialogue would be far better than spitting venom at each other. Acco40, "Oh I wish I was an Oscar Mayer weiner...." or "Little girls have pretty curls, but I like Oreos..." try to get those out of your head!

robertv36, You have some good advice here already. I am an assistant scoutmaster. As I pick up more knowledge of the program (some of it in these forums) I do not hesitate to bring it to the attention of the other leadership. Even if it goes against the opinion of others, if I do this constructively, they tend to listen and, most of the time, incorporate my input. Most people are susceptible to reason if it is given to them in a palatable manner. I say take the position.

I agree wholeheartedly with Bob White on this. Upon taking the CM position, I also took on the tradition of turning the cub upside down for his bobcat award. On one pack meeting during that first year, a cub spoke to me with great concern about his discomfort and apprehension about having to do this. I terminated the practice (and the tradition) on the spot, only later learning it was considered hazing. The young boy knew this better than the adults. I wonder how many boys have quit because of this and similar practices. Edited part: Powder on the hand seems innocuous. The brand thing would get attention around here, though, why not just one of those hand stamp things? I wonder about painting a paw print on their cheek, if it is voluntary would that pass muster? But...why isn't the award itself enough? Seems like a better tradition there and it certainly isn't hazing. Doesn't something else like being hanged or branded detract from the celebration of the actual accomplishment?(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

This unit is skewed toward the young side but we do have older boys who pry themselves away from distractions for some of the outings. The JASM is one of these and if there is an odd number, he prefers to tent alone. I don't object. I was woken one night in the wee hours by a boy in distress, having a wet bag. His buddy was out like a light. But the boy was embarrassed and cold. I gave him my spare (I keep it just for times like this, you know, all that coffee and playing in the fire, a guy can't be too careful) and told him not to worry.In the morning I accidentally spilled coffee on his bag, so we had to rinse it in a stream and dry it thoroughly. I think I read something like this in one of the magazines. He and I are great friends. As for the night fright and bears, most my work is informing the young ones that those sounds are coming from the SM, not some monster. OK maybe that is a monster of sorts, I mean the guy looks like Godzilla until his morning coffee...and not too different after that, maybe George Sinclair. Gotta love 'im!(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

When I was a scout, no one ever mislaid or forgot anything. Believe that? Seriously, my old troop never did anything like this when I was a scout (instead we had snipe hunts and were mean to each other in different ways). But when I arrived at this unit as a new leader there was a long tradition of doing just what you describe, at least that's what I was told. I was a little concerned about it but they boys seemed to accept it in good fun. Then, right here in these forums, (and not in the training, maybe they were deficient on this), I learned the actual policy. The practice in this unit ended immediately. I do still sing to them...so far no one has called that 'hazing' yet. 'Abuse' maybe. Oooooh, a horse is a horse, of course, of course...

johndaigler, you callin' me a 'honky'?

No such thing as 'overeducated'. Nescitis postaem obsuri lateris!

We combined the events and had a great time, but we had a much smaller unit. The meeting hall we had available would not have worked for a crowd of that size and we probably would have suffered similar problems.

Fuzzy, having evidently misinterpreted Rooster7, you must forgive me for being somewhat confused by your message. What did that mean?

Rooster7, ...which is similar to the way I reacted to your sarcastic comment to Acco40. If I was wrong about that, I apologize. BTW, I just noticed that I have an Acco20 on my desk, now I'm going to have to make a comparison. johndaigler, you seek fairness. I agree. As for the last part, I am sitting here tickling the cat's hind foot until it bites me. It's exciting to tickle the tail of the dragon, but you have to expect to get singed once in a while. But it is still exciting.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

When I was a cubmaster I only had a couple of times when conflicts arose, not exactly like this one though. In each case I met with the adults as a group (I think one time was a committee meeting) and explained that the pack existed for the boys. The leadership existed for the boys. The unit needed to run as team and that although we, as individuals, might have strong opinions and disagree with each other, we had to be willing to compromise to remain the team we needed to be...for the boys. I don't know, either my logic, dumb luck, or the threat of having to sit through another one of my lectures caused them to work together. At any rate, we had a pretty good pack and I had a great time working with the boys. Now that I think about it, the conflicts both involved only women - not that I think that was a factor, no siree.

NJ, I just realized it's also the sound the Martians made in the movie, "Mars Attacks". He's an alien! Back to scary again. BTW, Pierce Brosnan's finest ever performance and Lisa Marie...hubba, hubba.

I like the Garmin unit, I have an older one but it has never failed to work great! It acquires the signals quickly and downloads to my computer easily. Be careful if you take it to Russia, though, I had a close encounter there a few years back. Good thing the people I was with had a sense of humor.

This unit has already had families 'walk'. Some left after joining and others declined to join because of the policy. I guess they eventually will NOT be in "close proximity and enjoying the same comfortable surroundings" as Rooster7.

How about this? Ankh also means, "life". So "9 lives". Hey, he's a cat food salesman! That's not so scary after all. Gunther Toody, "ooh, ooh!", another thought...you suppose he eats cat food? Maybe I went a couple of pages too far...(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Unc, Holy Smokes! And I thought Ayn Rand was scary!

Good one, Acco40. You had me goin' there at first.

I seem to remember her as my high school assistant principal. No, maybe that was the daycare center...

Welcome to the campfire, 9Ankh. Some of us rave and some of us rant, so welcome. In case you are considering following Wheeler's path, you should know that his tenure here was rather short. OGE or another forum member may be able to give you more info on what happened (I can't remember the details) but my sense was that many of us were relieved when he got the boot.

"I don't know about now, but during my last tour 88-92, we had an army that was taking nobody with a criminal record, nobody without a high school diploma and good scores on the asvab test, and in our unit, we had 0% using illegal substances." In my mind this is the way it ought to be. Men and women of this calibre will be attracted to service if they are compensated sufficiently. This includes recognition as well as money. I think Trail Pounder may be stretching it a little when he said he would have done it for free, though, but I get his point and agree.

scouting for food, roadside cleanup (3 times per year), shoreline cleanup (numerous opportunities), trail maintenance, Veteran's Day ceremony assistance (chairs, ushering, cleanup, etc.), same for one or two other holidays. Not all the boys do all of these. But the troop does all of them and all of the boys do some of these.

Proud Eagle wrote something that reminded me of another facet of our energy resources. Most of our electricity is generated in thermal generating stations employing turbines. These conform to Rankine cycle rules rather than the Carnot thermodynamics. Even with multiple regeneration cycles these generally do not exceed about 40% thermal efficiency. Then there are transmission losses, not to mention inefficiencies at the user end. The energy to put 250-300 watts into the boob tube requires about 1000 watts of coal, oil, NG or other sources to be consumed. Combined heat and power promises greater efficiency but there are very few places that have adopted this. Trail Pounder is close with his dedication to nuclear. It is best suited for electric generation but the radwaste problem is very troublesome. To me it just doesn't make sense to burn natural gas to heat water to make steam to turn a turbine to turn a generator to make electricity to travel over wires to a house where it heats an element to boil water. Better to just burn the gas in the house and heat the water. Much more efficient. Every such example of inefficiency is a fertile opportunity for improvement and energy savings. I would like nuclear better if not for the waste conundrum. It is bad enough to leave this huge national debt for our children. The nuclear waste will have to be managed and guarded for thousands of years. I vote for more responsible use of our resources, even if they are abundant now.

It's another satellite kind of day.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

My philosophy is that anything involving fundraising or payment should be discouraged as service hours. The rationale is that although the boy may not be paid, the organization he is a member of gets paid and he derives benefit from that. Scouting for food, peer tutoring at school, shoreline cleanups, roadside cleanups, ushering for outdoor services at cemetaries, trail maintenance (my favorite), and lots of other possibilities, are options that have produced abundant hours for boys in this troop. There is nothing that says the boy can't exceed the number of service hours required. And ours do enthusiastically.