packsaddle

I remember it well. But I thought it was Beethoven, not Bach. Do you remember when Tipper Gore raised similar concerns regarding the music industry?

I think I see a small patch of hide remaining. I have interpreted the part of the G2SS using the word, "may" using definition 1B (from ACCO40). If a person were to ask me if they could use tobacco they might ask, "May I?" I would respond, "No, you may not." Mercifully, this unit has no leaders and very few parents that use tobacco. If we did I would not allow boys for whom such adults were not the parent to ride with them. "No, you may not ride in a non-smoke-free car." But we don't have a problem with transportation either. To me it is sad when intelligent adults decide not to quit tobacco. Sadder still when they are not mindful of the risk that a boy might view them and their addiction as a positive role model.

Fuzzy Bear, I considered writing something about this but I felt the post was getting too long. Sharks are an important component of the marine ecosystem. If I were to catch one while fishing for something else, I would merely release it. I know of no reason to choose to needlessly kill an organism whether it is a shark or a snake or a tree. As a matter of fact, I consider wanton waste to be a violation of the outdoor code, the part about being conservation-minded.

To respond to the culinary question, I have eaten shark but don't much care for it. The reason is that shark flesh is usually loaded with urea and for some reason, I dislike the odor during preparation and the taste. From the website: http://www.sidwell.edu/us/science/vlb7/dissectlab/conclusion/excretory.html "As a marine organism, the shark has to combat water loss due to osmosis. It has a large glomerulus, and so it cannot limit water loss by processing a small amount of urine like marine bony fish. Instead, the shark has developed a high tolerance for its own nitrogenous wastes in blood and cytoplasm. Urea and trimethylamine oxide are kept in the blood in high concentrations to keep the solute concentration of blood plasma high, so that the blood can contain amounts of salts (Na+ and Cl-) normal to vertebrates, and still be isotonic to sea water. The sharks tubules reabsorb both urea and trimethylamine oxide." Bony fish are therefore quite different and I tend to eat them with great reverence. "Is this a statement of faith or an EEO policy? Sure theyre tolerant. In fact, theyre so tolerant I challenge you to find something that they dont tolerant(sic)." Rooster7, I think each UU member would have to answer this challenge as an individual but the organization is reasonably clear that they don't tolerate bigotry or discrimination. Most UU members are human beings just like you (except for the occasional space alien) and they share most of the human emotions. In my experience, intolerant persons are welcome to attend and even participate in open and honest discussions. However, when they express intolerance, they are taken to task in an open and honest manner. I am curious about the statement, however, "I just cant stomach lying in any shape or form." It seems difficult to square this with support for GW Bush as he has perpetrated what has to be one of the worst lies of this century. SemperParatus, I've said it before...I think OGE is perfect.

When I was cubmaster, our experience with B&G visits was better when the DE spoke less. Best when he wasn't there at all. I think there were two factors. First, they only spoke of needing more donations. Second, they seemed to have no skill whatsoever at public speaking. A couple of times we actually had families quit because of what was said (confided to me at a much later date). Recently, I heard the current cubmaster (a few generations down the road by now) mentioning that under no circumstance was the DE to be invited to the B&G. I guess things haven't changed much.

Hey, some of my neighbors are cockfighters. Really! Not that I support that activity, I just know they do it because of their descriptions and their extensive collections of fighting cocks. And I can tell you from long ago when I was a child, those roosters are quite tasty AND tender if you cook them long enough with the dumplings. Just part of growing up in the South, I suppose, although unlike Rooster7 I haven't eaten a dog. Yet. Hunt, fish do feel and I'm not sure I agree with your phylogenetic arrangement. I could be more certain if you would fill in with some of the other organisms and their placement. Nevertheless, the fact is...we kill organisms (plant or animal) and eat them to stay alive. We all do this, no exceptions. I am not sure why some people think that a nervous system automatically bestows greater worthiness for life. So to me the important point is not to waste the lives of the organisms we consume as we continue ours. Torribug, I too had a BB gun and then a pellet rifle, and today an array of implements of destruction which I seem to use less and less as my butt gets more comfortable at my desk. And the ethic I learned way back also was if you shoot it/catch it, you eat it. Later, I modified that to be more like, "if you need to eat it, then shoot it/catch it and eat it." Not quite the same thing. But I am nevertheless a member of PETA (People Eating Tasty Animals). By the way, I remember lots of times when catfish were merely tossed on the bank gasping until they died. By me and many others...a long time ago. Rooster7, I have often detected a certain condemnation/contempt from you toward other faiths not in agreement with yours. Have I misinterpreted these outbursts? I think I understand your rant about Islam a while back. Perhaps not. I definitely don't understand why you feel this way about the Unitarian Universalists. It seems almost personal, perhaps even vindictive. Finally, this discussion reminded me of some lines from a movie, "Third Fish: Hey, look. Howard's being eaten. Second Fish: Is he? [They move forward to watch a waiter serving a large grilled fish to a large man.] Second Fish: Makes you think doesn't it? Fourth Fish: I mean... what's it all about? Fifth Fish: Beats me. Why are we here, what is life all about? Is God really real, or is there some doubt? Well tonight we're going to sort it all out, For tonight it's the Meaning of Life."

Hunt, a 'local option' policy would be far preferable in my mind. Still, it would leave the likelihood that 'local option' would be quite variable across all units with some perhaps going far beyond the muddled approach that exists now, even to adoption of your third suggestion. In that case fear would take a prominent place in our interactions. I might be afraid of behaviors that fit a gay stereotype. Gossip and innuendo would become important. It would be like...living in a small Southern town.

Acco40, I am also concerned about the 'thought control' aspect of this issue. Ed, "safe" to me means that the boy can be confident that he does not risk condemnation for a question he may have and that our discussion will be open between us and honest. Also that if he communicates it confidentially, he will know that it will remain confidential. I understand your argument about the conflict with 'trustworthy' and that is why I said that the 'avowed' policy makes the deception inevitable. BSA explicitly accepts homosexual members as long as they are not 'avowed'. That policy therefore implicitly accepts the conflict with 'trustworthy' as long as BSA doesn't know about it. This is a self-deception on BSA's part. Here's why: BSA has painted themselves into a logical corner on this. BSA has the freedom to create whatever membership requirements BSA chooses. Assuming that BSA basically wants to exclude all homosexuals (probably not a stretch here), they nevertheless also realize that there is no way to determine sexual orientation if a person neither acts nor speaks of it. So it is pointless to say they allow no homosexuals as members...they know it does not and will not work. Homosexuals are and will be members anyway. BSA therefore, pragmatically, recognizes this with their carefully crafted policy that "avowed" homosexuals cannot be members. I have to believe that BSA (or whoever came up with this wording) must have considered its implications prior to implementation. Assuming that is the case, BSA therefore also knows that the policy DOES allow homosexuals who are not 'avowed' to become members, creating a logical conflict with their fundamental intent of allowing no homosexuals at all (and thereby forming a self-deception). The 'avowed' qualifier is indeed a troubling thing but it is BSA's creation and no one else's. The fundamental problem in all of this is BSA's flawed policy. But so far that seems to be unavoidable as well.

Strawberry Switchblade, That is an observation that I have also tried to communicate on this topic from time to time. BSA policy leads inevitably to this deception. A related one is the self-deception by those homophobes who are satisfied by BSA policy while, in fact, that policy is absolutely ineffective at addressing precisely their concerns.

le Voyageur, it is just possible that I DID post to several of those personalities. Anyway, about the French thing, (just hijacking the topic for a moment) I just read an article in New York magazine that asked the question, why has there NOT been another strike like 9/11 in the USA, more specifically NY City? One of the several reasons given by a very credible source (I can't recall it offhand) was that although France has refused to send their military to Iraq, they have been extremely helpful to us and the British by freely sharing their intelligence. They have a far better intelligence organization than any other country for information on the middle east and specifically their information was credited with preventing more than one repeat of the 9/11 terrorist attack in the UK and in this country. I think Americans should reconsider their griping about French non-support of this war of choice.

When I review manuscripts for potential publication in scientific journals, I am often allowed to do this anonymously. The theory is that it allows the freedom to make what sometimes can be painful criticisms of a colleague's research. I never hesitate to reject anonymity because I feel the need to pose those criticisms constructively and there is never a risk to me for confronting the author(s) directly (they sure do it to me). However, in this forum there is a risk that BSA could eject me because of my views. However small that risk may be, I consequently remain anonymous.

A friend has responded. I decided to share it, names removed. The family seems to have survived. His message in full: MESSAGE BEGINS "Hello !! Yes, we are all O.K. #### is running doctors and volunteers into Aceh though DF. I am in Medan, North Sumatra listening to the helicopters fly back and forth (saw a US Marine General in the lobby of my hotel a few hours ago.. not a usual sight in Indonesia!) and setting up an office that will support some reconstruction work in coming months (a USAID Environmental project). and Im working with #### who have survived a nightmare. Your donation to UNICEF(the best of UN agencies) will really help all donations help and are much appreciated I assure you. It is especially good to know that people on the other side of the world understand and truly care about the people in Aceh and North Sumatra.. Hope you are all well and happy in the New Year! Please take care, ####" END OF MESSAGE The part about donations to UNICEF is particularly useful guidance for getting the most effective aid to them.

Our guys are usually fairly happy with camp. We manage this status by 1)selecting the second or third week and 2)trying to match them with activities that are appropriate for age/maturity. The selection of the date affects air temperature (usually lower in early summer) and food quality (the cook had a week or so of practice already). Activities do depend on the quality of counselors but we try not to have the boys in MBs that are knowledge based. This means that they don't spend an activity period just sitting, bored.

I agree, deception is the most feasible reason that I can imagine. The only other strong prospect would be fear and that could just be a motive for deception. I had forgotten your original moniker. I still smile when I read the current one.

Oh I don't know...I bet I could forget a few of them SR540Beaver, I have to ask, was there only ONE person who did that? It was confusing to me and I couldn't keep track of how many real persons there were.

On the road. Ed, I put much more importance on food than that. Bon Appetite!

Actually, I had to look a while to find a mistake and then I'm not too sure about it. But I think the entry, Rome, GA Pack 1902 BERRY COLLEGE ELEM. SCHOOL is a private school. I'd check to make sure. But it is clear that the vast majority are for packs not troops. And anyone who thinks those boys have established firm religious beliefs is deluding themselves. Lastly, and I mean it - I really am leaving for vacation now, everyone should really enjoy the latest issue of 'The Economist'. Borrow a copy, go to the library, or worse, buy it. The leader on the 'end of the world' is just great, not to mention being like divine providence for my exchange with Rooster7 (seemingly bogged down elsewhere in these threads). Bon Appetite! I am in Rapt attention to your reactions. Happy Holiday Everyone!

OK, this is going to come across like a boast but I often think about this. I can't think of a realistic situation for a career that I would like more than the one I'm in now. Every day I thank my lucky stars...and the 95% perspiration that went with them.

The climbing wall in Salt Lake City is sweet! But, sadly, I already owned almost every other useful thing they had to offer.

So....? If your point is that THEY do it then you must react similarly to every OTHER business and organization that does it. Do you? I have a case in point for you: I have a neighbor family (ok they live 0.5 miles away) that is almost never seen outside their home. If I knock on their door, there is a 90% chance they won't even answer it. They don't answer phone calls or correspondence sent to them, at least not from me. That is fine with me but my point is - they are very private. I dare say that prying eyes don't notice them and they give very little reason for eyes to pry. But if you get a credit card, join BSA as an adult leader, buy a car, you get the picture, there are going to be lots of prying eyes. You'll know neither who they are nor their motives. And until they cross the line for whatever privacy laws there are, you can do nothing about it. So....?

For the best bang for the buck, join through the local state chapter of the ACLU. That way you will get news at both levels. Ed, I support the ACLU and similar organizations such as the Southern Poverty Law Center - primarily for their work on civil rights. Unless you think racial bigotry is good, you must at least understand those issues. But in a broader sense their work, whether you recognize it or not, helps protect you as well. And me. Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

OGE, you already did it for me! If I don't get to a keyboard sooner, have a great Christmas everyone!

So now I would like to come to the defence of Rooster7, who along with me is a minority opinion, at least according to the abbreviated history in the second link. There are maybe 60 predictions of the rapture listed there for past dates. It is difficult for me to admit it but...they didn't consider mine for the list. So I am relegated to the same minority status as Rooster7. I have tried to envision each and every one of those 'other' predictions and I can't find any reason they should have been wrong. They just were. Orrrrrr weeeerrrreeee they? This tantalizing possibility leads to the theory of, tata!, "Multiple Raptures". Which is equally disprovable as my own theory that it only happened once. Once is enough isn't it? Except.... Except if a person is convinced that all of them couldn't possibly be true. And by what evidence could that person possibly believe the rapture DIDN'T happen? Well....of course, the evidence is that that person, how do I put this? That person is still here. And, of course, it would be arrogance to think that it didn't happen simply because THEY were still here, wouldn't it? H'mmmmm.

Hey man, at LEAST a dozen. I'd watch it again but I think it must have been taken back during the rapture of '96. Or maybe lost under a pile of Totin' Chip corners. Edited part: Holy Toledo, Bat Man! What am I thinking? The Rapture! You don't suppose....(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

There are so many caves I sometimes wonder why there IS any surface water in that state. We had a great trip there a while back. There are several really great tours through Mammoth. There is another group camp site available nearby at CrystalOnyx Cave. It's located right across the interstate from Mammoth Cave and very convenient. Their site rental rate is also very reasonable. http://www.crystalonyxcave.com/ The group site is right on top of a hill overlooking everything. It is a primitive site with picnic tables and big enough for a small troup (maybe 10 or so tents) (bathroom facilities are down the hill). And their cave is pretty nice as well. Have a great trip!