packsaddle

Sounds like predestination is alive and well. My wife says that I have free will. But that I just shouldn't think I can act on it.

I obviously agree with DugNevius and CA_Scouter. I further find that the argument that a piece of paper with a picture on it may cause a violent felony - is preposterous. If one makes that argument, then they would also have to support the contention that guns DO kill people (actually this is a much stronger contention in that the inanimate object is actually the tool for the crime's commission). In fact, a rapist decides to commit the crime. It isn't an accident or something they were forced to do. It was something the rapist decided to do. If the contention was that a rapist might also look at a picture on a piece of paper, I would agree. I would also consider that perhaps most rapists would look at the picture. But to infer causality reaches beyond reason.

OK, I'll be nice now. Hunt is trying to pose a good question, one worth considering. The Playboy is the slippery slope. The gradient proceeds through, well, can't think of the names, to Hustler, and on 'til it becomes Rooster7's hated NAMBLA literature or, worse, actual child pornography. The question is really a 'where do you draw the line?' kind of question and we probably won't agree in this forum. There may be a state or national law that is relevant and that would establish 'the line' as far as I am concerned. As someone (I can't remember who) said in another thread, if he passed the background check, that was sufficient. But that doesn't really address the question of how we make judgements of morality. And so far, I haven't read anything by BSA that is definitive enough to establish a line anywhere else.

Sorry Ed. I guess you've seen this a few times as well.

Me, I just pick them up for the insightful articles. Never peek at the centerfold Man, would you look at the time, I'm getting hungry, time for lunch!

Trevorum, good one! On that basis, I know a few politicians who wouldn't make it in...but, ahem, I already have a few venomous creatures here, oh well too late. FYI, I'm visited by Jehovah's Witnesses occasionally. Similar situation, but they take one look at my bookshelf and quickly make their escape. Probably afraid of something venomous. (no, it's not my mother-in-law, I love my mother-in-law) (OK maybe 'love' is perhaps too strong a term, it would be more like 'have great affection for', yep, that's it.)

Busy Lady, this troop is almost that diverse - serves a university community. We haven't had a wiccan, druid, or animist but we have or have had all the others (including Buddhist which you didn't list). Only one of the boys is from a family that is a member of the CO. All the rest are from the community at large. Scoutldr, I agree. In this diverse troop we manage to avoid these needless conflicts by leaving religious matters to the boys' families...where those matters belong. Edited grammar, sorry.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

You can visit my living room anytime and pray for two hours and as long as you don't break something or cause me get a snakebite, you're welcome. I'll probably start daydreaming after the first couple of minutes. My wife complains that I do this when she's talking to me as well. Incorrigible, I suppose.

I'll be interested to read the resolution to this. There are a couple of leaders I know who don't tuck in their shirt tails, and when they stoop or bend over to do something...welll. Has anyone heard that America has a growing crack problem?

Hey anarchist, off topic but I have to ask. What cave was that and how do I get to it? Please tell me more. P.S. good conversation

Even in disagreement, I thank busylady for her thoughtful message. I think I understand your view.

Even in disagreement, I thank busylady for her thoughtful message. I think I understand your view.

Vicki, nice work. Saved me a lot of time. Thanks for the sources. Johndaigler, I agree. I hope EagerLeader is still reading the responses...and taking heart.

Our ceremonies are done at summer camp, not a camporee. The numbers are fairly large and this is a problem but the ceremony is done at the waterfront and it is spectacular. The only sound, even with the huge audience of boys, is thousands of frogs, almost deafening. Really impressive, I can hear all those frogs as I write. Wait a minute...that's the phone..gotta go.

Welcome to the forums. I can't read your son's mind. Life at age 13 is going pretty fast. Could be he just wants a change. I doubt anyone will give you an answer that sounds perfect. If you let him take a break, he has 4+ years to return and finish. This unit has had scouts who functionally did that. And we've had a few who made Life and stopped advancing. The most recent one (over 18 now and regretting it) just asked to talk with me about 'things'. I told him that there is nothing wrong with Life rank. And that his feelings about not finishing could just be one of the best life lessons he could have. He now knows what it is like to let an opportunity pass, and therefore has a better chance of avoiding this thinking error in the future (possibly when the decision has a much greater impact). My son also wanted to quit. I made a deal with him: make it through Star and then I would honor his wish. At Star he decided to go all the way. And I WOULD have honored his wish. Good luck.

I'm a member. The biggest service that I understand is the scholarship program. As you know there is also a newsletter and opportunities to interact with other members. Edited part: here's a web site: http://www.scouting.org/nesa/(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

I merely asked a question. Out-of-context is also what you just did, Torveaux. And you didn't even give us a complete sentence. So what does "self-evident" mean to you? Jefferson selected that precise wording for a reason. What do you think his reason was? Trevorum, as you probably surmise, I wouldn't reject a single one of their boys. I think the fathers' beliefs are irrelevant. As for the fathers, that's not my call to make. And I can't speak for BSA. If there are any BSA professionals reading this who CAN speak for BSA, I am interested in their answer.

Welcome to the forums, Rising_Scout. I ask you, what do you think the following words mean? "We hold these truths to be self-evident."

How about, 'be an advocate, not a fanatic?'

Sorry to hear about the loss. A thief, if sufficiently determined, will take - no matter what. But that was good advice before. Good luck in the future.

EagerLeader, for that matter everyone else, no one at any time should feel a necessity to reveal ANYTHING about their personal beliefs to these forums or to any officer or member of BSA. If you choose to do this, freely and on your own, that is fine. But NEVER feel like you have an obligation to reveal these personal matters, you have nothing to prove to anyone else. You only answer to yourself. That said, as I have stated before, I enjoy ALL the myths. As Trevorum said, in some sense it may all be a fairy tale or a fantasy and I have no problem with that. Just don't try to argue that it is rational. I think the bar for absolute atheism is exceedingly high and some persons who fancy themselves as atheists simply haven't tried that jump, really. Part of the fantasy, perhaps. BTW, anyone out there ever tried Bokononism? A very civilized religion and as good as any.

I wear a brown leather western style that I bought years ago at Woolarock in Oklahoma. Made by Minnetonka...inexpensive but comfortable. It's my hat. An airline pilot in SLC recently offered to trade. I know he was joking but I politely declined, saying that there are lots of pilot hats, but only one of this one. Like I said, it's my hat. The most memorable hat was one my father wore while sailing. It was a Greek captain's hat and he loved it. One of my lasting images was of him at the tiller, wearing that hat. A few days before he died, he slowly took the hat off his bed and quietly placed it on my head, sort of a passage, I suppose. At the funeral I placed it on his body so he could be buried with it, knowing somehow it would never really fit me. It was his hat.

Uuuuuhhh, passion without emotion? That's difficult to imagine. My dictionary actually uses 'emotion' as one of the definitions of 'passion'. The best line: "PASSION applies to an emotion that is deeply stirring or ungovernable". But I agree with what I think you are trying to say. And for the record, fish on pizza...is just wrong. Canadian bacon and sauerkraut, ok. Tropical fruit, ok. Chocolate, ok. Fish, no way. Well,...maybe.

Oops, forgot. To help Acco40 with an answer from a while back, I've been asked if I was gay 3 times that I can remember. I've been ACCUSED twice. In every instance my response was the same. Merlyn, of course there is no such rule, only an interpretation and a judgement as to how to respond to certain situations.

Trevorum, I do appreciate your point regarding the 'corporate' characterstics. However, I must also defend the corporate approach because it, at least, is fickle enough to turn sharply if the bottom line goes the other way. 'Amoral' is how I describe it, but you are correct in observing that it can cut in the direction you state if the bottom line so demands. I have ultraconservative, fundamentalist neighbors who fly the confederate flag, and express openly their opposition to civil rights (to put it mildly). I doubt they would change their views for a buck. Which is the better way? P.S. I'm not attempting to stereotype my fundamentalist neighbors, they differ strongly on other issues. And every single one of them is absolutely right.