packsaddle

Me, I was perfectly happy with the George Burns model until a boy once told me he thought God would look like a cloud. I had to retool my image a bit after that.

We keep records on who has earned these things so the card is a useful token of that fact. But we don't make it absolutely essential. The cards are forgotten often and sometimes lost. Happens to me too. Interestingly, our backpack trip last weekend, it was an adult who didn't remember the way to hand a knife to another person. The boys had a good time 'teaching' this skill to the leader (thankfully not me, at least not this time).

Acco40, You may be able to imagine, then, my reaction to the film, "Passion..." But I'll bet that on at least one occasion, you experimented by putting a paper clip in an electrical outlet to see what would happen. Fun, wasn't it? Fuzzy, messenger perhaps, but you are the one who thought to bring the message to us...thanks. FYI, When my sister followed me through school, her teachers would ask if she was my sister, and then scowl when they heard the answer. Oh well, think I caused her to have some kind of complex?

Right on, Fuzzy Bear!

4YearLeader, Welcome to the forums. I understand what you wrote about the 'institutional hypocrisy' - I've written similar things in the past. To some degree, this is unavoidable by BSA because there simply is no way for the 'thought police' or the 'faith Nazis' to detect unexpressed thoughts. So those who remain silent are obviously 'allowed' to continue. The solution to this is to remove the restrictions and, as suggested by another poster, simply apply the background check. That, while not perfect, is at least actually related to the safety and health of the boys. Edited Part: typo, sorry(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Cliff, (sound of hand hitting forehead) now why didn't I think of that? OK, let's try a different address: 1060 West Addison, Chicago, IL 60613

Welllll, I didn't exactly say it was MY address, did I? Edited part: forgot the smiley thing.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Cliff, 'Playboy' and intellectual nourishment? But of course! If any you jokesters out there would like to send some bogus subscriptions or crank mail, PM me and I'll give you a mailing address. Heck, here it is, use it as often as you want: 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW, Washington, DC 20500

My sympathy to all the families who have lost members over there. I am sorrowful for all of them, every last one.

I was in a similar situation but I had two boys who were 'orphaned' in a Webelos II den when the leader moved away (I was the CM). I worked with their parents and the troop associated with the pack. I think all the leaders involved were sensitive to the situation and their AOL ceremony was just great. Leaders and boys from the pack AND the troop were there as well as parents and relatives. One of them recently made Eagle and the other made Life before going on to college. Great kids, I really miss them.

I've seen this arrangement before but the one I saw collapsed when a leader accidentally snagged off on one of the supports while he was returning sleepily in the dark from cracker barrel. I guess I just add to make sure the supports for the base are really secure. Uuhhhh, I won't mention who the leader was...hey, would you look at the time, gotta go.

Perhaps that is what is described as (sensu Bette Midler...hubba, hubba) 'divine madness'? Fuzzy, thanks for the good words. Yes, and those insoluble situations sure make it interesting.

I was sitting there enjoying the afternoon and all the interesting things happening around me...when a voice from above ordered me to leave the bible belt. And go to California. My flight was boarding. Anyway, JD I agree. About the slippery slope too. Scoutldr, good one. Firstpusk, ouch.

So which is it, discuss the various arguments about issues surrounding the morality of adults feeding children alcoholic beverages, or whether I'm politically correct in using a term that others around me use casually and with connotations that go both directions? If you want to hide from the first question, I'll be glad to oblige you with a discussion of the second.

Hunt, I agree that the problem is more difficult when applied outside the 'religious ceremony' realm. There may be a way to sort this out, however. Question 1: Why does a government have a compelling reason to restrict alcohol to persons under a certain age? The answers may include maturity, developmental health, safety, or fear of substance abuse (both of the alcohol and the harder drugs to which it is a gateway). I doubt that 'morality' plays a large part of the government's decision. Question 2: If non-moral concerns (such as safety) are a reason for such restrictions, why would the restriction be applied less strongly for the child in the presence of the parent, than for the child in the presence of another adult? Or, for that matter, the child in no one's presence? If anyone can supply a good answer to that, they will be able to rationalize a parent feeding their child alcoholic beverages as they see fit. The law does not specify an amount of alcohol, nor does it specify who the adult is, feeding the alcohol to the child. The law merely prohibits the activity. To me the morality issue IS associated with it, doubly so, especially if adults who are supposed to be role models for youth violate that law thus instructing the child that it is acceptable to engage in underage consumption of alcoholic beverages, as well as to violate the law, even one having to do with safety and health, if the individual disagrees with that law. As for the 'bible belt' thing, I merely used it in the same colloquial manner that we use it all around here - in the bible belt. Yes it may be divisive. The people here in the bible belt seem to like it that way.

...I tried so hard to wait this one out. Perhaps a name for the religion will not help. We tend to rely on such typographical conveniences and we sometimes think they are a substitute for understanding. For this particular topic, we are left with the certain knowledge that we do NOT understand the situation. And some of us have passed judgement anyway. If Fuzzy does not relent, how do we proceed? We proceed as if the boy has asked us to take his religious convictions on faith. Which is, actually, what we do with each other anyway. There is probably little chance that one of us can convey completely to someone else, our deepest religious convictions (as if it would be any of their business in the first place). So if a boy is simply asked, "Have you met this requirement?" and he answers, "Yes", that may be sufficient. It would be incumbent on the interrogator to prove him wrong...a task with doubtful objective success.

I guess I have to respond because of my family's experience with a drunk driver. In many states (perhaps all?) it SURE IS illegal for a minor to possess or consume alcohol in any quantity. In my state, there is no distinction between a child who is the offspring of a parent and the child who has another person as a parent - if the adult gives the child ANY alcohol they have committed a crime. Period. I also know this to be true in other bible belt states. In fact, if a parent has been shown to engage in this behavior, a complaint can be filed and the family can be investigated by DSS (DHS) for fitness to continue to have children in the home. Here is a site for VA: http://www.abc.state.va.us/Education/parent2/parent2.htm Specifically, "Purchasing, aiding and abetting or giving alcohol to minors is against the law." and then, "It is illegal for anyone under 21 to possess any alcoholic beverage." The law is perfectly clear. Considering the potential tragic consequences of breaking the above law (and thereby providing a twice-negative example that both this behavior and breaking laws are acceptable), to conclude that the behavior is 'moral' is an expression of moral relativism that I am surprised to see here, considering the source.

I just don't see the big problem. I'd hand over my entire medical history to Council if they asked. Knowing their apocalyptic incompetence in keeping troop records, they'd stupidly lose or delete all of my records in a few months anyway, and then I'd have to give it all to them again. The cycle of professional BSA life goes on.

Acco40, "Is anything wrong with that?" Heck no. I still drink a fair amount of mammary gland excretion.

Sort of on topic, I'll share with everyone my favorite campfire story that has to do with life, satan, hell, and everything: http://www.anvilfire.com/21centbs/stories/John_the_Blacksmith.htm This isn't quite the version I tell though. In mine I add: old John is given a hot cinder by satan and told to take that and go make his own hell. And that explains the mysterious lights people say they've seen wandering these mountains. It's Old John wandering around with that hot cinder, still looking for that place. This last twist, I have later learned, borrows from the original Celtic version of the story and embellishes it with local folklore (Brown Mountain Lights). http://www.ibiblio.org/ghosts/bmtn.html Hope you like it, the boys do especially the younger ones.

Absolutely, I'll get the matches if you gather the wood. Condemn them all...let Dionysus sort them out.

This whole thread blew up and seems to have almost played itself out while I was with the troop on a backpacking trip. Great trip, perfect weather. But I'll make what might be the final comment. Witchcraft doesn't exist - Magic doesn't exist - Monsters don't exist - At least not outside the mind of the person whose imagination has conjured these things. Many people toy around with fantasies on life's journey. None of the above precludes the simultaneous belief in a 'higher power'. I know several nice persons who claim to be witches. I kid with them saying they don't really look all that unattractive. They threaten me with 'boils'. We have a great time when we're together but they know I think they are delusional. They really do believe they can heal people, work spells, etc. None of it really does anything bad except waste time. Many of the people here in the South have local stories about witchcraft and the so-called "Dark Arts". This sometimes has a racial overtone that truly is bad. However, I do know of a place in the forest nearby. A series of very large stones form a ring for seating and in the center is a nicely constructed fire ring. Locals swear that satan worship takes place there. I have visited the site many times and evidence exists that they may be correct. Numerous remains of dead animals litter the area. Mostly chicken bones and parts. No one seems to know who it is that engages in these ceremonies, thought the cult seems to based out of Kentucky. The part that's a mystery to me is the identity of a their leader whose photo is often left behind in the litter. He's older with grey hair and a satanic goatee. And the name is barely legible on the inscription on these photos. His name is...Colonel Sanders? Yep, I'd rather be back on the trail right now.

OGE, good one. The alcohol thing is perhaps another question. The adult mentions during casual conversation that he occasionally allows his 19-year-old to have a sip of beer or wine. Clearly a violation of law. Now what? Or allows his underage child to dip snuff? Or allows his underage son to watch an 'NC-17'-rated video? Or allows a group of his son's underage friends to watch an 'NC-17'-rated video?

No Yes

Kahuna and Downtoearth, welcome to the forums. Kahuna, that was quite a trip you took through faith. I wish you well. Regarding slavery, I'm thinking maybe Moses... As for the contention that ending the exclusions would have this or that effect, I heard many of the same...exactly the same...arguments during the time when (horrors!) black people were going to be allowed to drink out of OUR water fountains. Lets see, 50 years ago, society was going to h... in a handbasket (under Eisenhower), there was going to be all manner of conflict, possibly a race war - because black people were going to be allowed to: vote, sit with white people, go to school with white people, live with white people, etc. Waiting (foot tapping sounds). Still waiting, nothing happening....