packsaddle

NJ, I think that Trevorum and I supplied a (perhaps limited) set of answers to your question. Two of my alternatives, at least, (although not particularly satisfying or illuminating) could explain the apparent contradiction. tortdog, as I remember, the Texas sodomy law that recently saw its end was rejected because the sodomy law (a very loose interpretation of the act in this case) was being applied ONLY to gays when, in fact, those acts included were also practiced by non-gay members of the Texas population (they just weren't being prosecuted). The legal action, I believe, was intended to force the government to apply the law equally to everyone. It seems fair to me. In response, for some reason (wink, wink), the leaders of government in Texas decided it would be better to get rid of the law. Now that I think of it, who WOULD want to mess with Texas? Wow, I just remembered...BSA headquarters is in Texas ....naaaaah! Edited for subtlety;)(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

tortdog, it is my understanding that belief in duty to god and country is not the problem. The problem is discrimination against persons who do not share a religious belief. And if an organization that is funded by the government (the school) does discriminate on that basis, or if they give exclusive access to a group that discriminates on that basis (BSA), it IS illegal. This does not mean that cub scouts have no access to schools. Of course dens can meet there. We use schools for all sorts of activities. For that matter some churches in this area actually use public schools for their weekly services. This is just fine as long as all of us have equal access and as long as the public school does not sponsor the church. Similarly, packs and troops simply cannot be chartered by public schools and they cannot be given exclusive access by public schools. As for calling attention to possible illegal activity in Houston, don't feel badly, it was your civic duty to bring that to light.

BSAChaplain, in advance I want you to know that this is meant as a compliment. I have very much enjoyed your contributions to the threads and one reason is that they read very much like mini-sermons. Kind of refreshing. Wish I could figure out how to do it.

moreningduv, welcome to the forums. Could you explain just what a fluffy hug is? I have this image of 'Big Bird' giving a hug and I'm fairly sure that's wrong.

Eamonn, I wish our boys had the benefit of a MB program such as you describe. They don't. And I guess that leaves a lot of discretion to the SM who can 'control' the boy's choice. Maybe someday....

Trevorum, I liked that...Oh Rapture! There's little inherently bad about most of the fantasies, whether games like Magic or D&D, or stories like Harry Potter or the Left Behind series. It should all just be good fun. And if they stick around long enough I suppose they have a chance of being added to our myths. When people start to take that stuff seriously is the point that care is needed. During the wind-down time in the evenings, card games are fine. I prefer stories told around the fire. As long as the idea is to end the day in good spirits and get some good sleep before the next day.

Tortdog, the possible answers I can identify are: 1) they're thoughtless, or 2) they're hypocritical, or 3) they're homophobic. Which one is the good one?

I agree with Kahuna. The act of viewing something is, in and of itself, neutral. Light reflected off the surface (or emitted from it) is detected by us and our brains convert the nervous stimuli into visual information. Regardless of what IT is, simply viewing it cannot be a matter of morality. However, to fantasize about something with the most prurient, debased, and violent of thoughts COULD be considered immoral, even if nothing is being viewed. The better question has more to do with what is in our hearts and minds, rather than what is on a printed page. And no one can truly know that for another person, ever. Edited part: You know, I could have sworn (oops, a little immorality leaking out there) that Maxim was a brand of coffee. And furthermore, I'll have you know that there is a rich literature on genitalia. I happen to view genitalia quite often, and not on the printed page either. I get to see the real deal, up close and personal - with all the smells and iridescent colors and everything. Except usually on microscopic plants and animals. Some fish. OK, a few snakes and an occasional bird. Yep, and the horse across the way sometimes shows some proud flesh. Big deal! OK, for the microscopic organisms, it's a really little deal. But let me tell you...not for that horse! As Bob Dole says, "Down boy!" (This message has been edited by packsaddle)

As far as the Mephisto factor goes, I agree with Hunt. But I also agree with Tortdog regarding activities at camp. I don't make the boys' decisions for them but I encourage them, as much as possible, to do active things at camp rather than passive things where they basically sit around. We have ample opportunities outside camp for those 'knowledge-based' merit badges. Same goes for fantasy, role-playing games (like bridge or canasta or hearts;) ).

Sturgen, Is this just for our info, or do you have a particular message to transmit?

I think around here, this is one of the most potentially hazardous events we can attempt even if we bicycle on state or county backroads. In the past, we've taken some substantial trips but even for the day trips we've had at least one chase vehicle. This vehicle has been useful for: 1) repairs. We've had flat tires, broken chains, broken pedals. A good tool box with a chain breaker and some spare links is good too. 2) medical. One boy took a tumble and resultant scratches, etc. 3) fatigue. In our region the heat is really dangerous. We're very forgiving of a boy who is completely fatigued or in danger of heat stroke. 4) spare bikes. We've had to use them a time or two, also to carry the bikes if a boy quits or can't continue. 5) Safety factor with traffic. A chase vehicle with its warning blinkers on will alert approaching traffic and hopefully slow them a bit. A honk from the chase vehicle can alert boys that another vehicle is approaching. 6) the chase vehicle can carry food and drinks for everyone - this has been GREATLY appreciated in the past. We make the group stay as a group (every boy should be within sight of at least on other boy) and a designated lead scout has a talkabout to communicate with the chase vehicle. And we have two adults on bikes and if possible, two adults with the chase vehicle.

In uniform, out, it doesn't seem to make a difference with women. Sooner or later (usually sooner) they all dumped me. Except for one who seems to perpetually have second thoughts. Now, I also prefer Phoenix dactylifera, they're softer, warmer, and sweeter than the feminine type. Edited part: great joke, VentureScout!(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Fuzzy Bear, I had to stop and think about your list. I used to kid parents that their boys should join our cub scout pack because we let them do illicit things like eating bacon. But seriously, I agree with a lot of those things (aside from that bacon restriction, Rooster is probably right, I'm agoin' to a warmer clime someday). I got back into eating oatmeal (porridge, as they called it) in Russia and still love it. Never even tasted coffee until a couple of years ago but now I just gobble a tablespoon of instant and wash it down with a gulp of seltzer. Unless, of course, I'm up for an actual enjoyable experience in which case we're talkin' the French press (I suppose that would be 'freedom press' for all the anti-French troglodytes). I also drink seltzer with an orange juice flavoring. Tonic water only works with Tanqueray. Mosquitos don't bother me anyway so malaria isn't much of an issue, I guess I'm too mean (or else it's that awful instant coffee). Push mower only also (mine doesn't even have an engine, it's one of those old reel types), and my back yard is like a mountainside. But I just can't shake the bacon thing. I know it's like mainlining cholesterol but that monkey is squarely on my back and I love it...there's a warmer clime a'comin'.

Let's see, the faculty and staff are government employees, the property is owned by the government, the buildings were built and maintained with government funds, the school budget is part of the government's budget... me thinks Ed is baiting us again just like he does with Merlyn all the time. Think I'll spit that hook out now.

JohnD, I hope that brief visit to Houston was really important, traveling from Doha. Talk about dedication! That has to be some kind of record! I AM impressed. I don't have the statistics in hand but I think I read that SC is the fattest state (or at least near the top, along with illiteracy, domestic violence, STDs, and a few other similar things). I doubt that SC can blame BSA for all that adipose tissue. Probably need to study the other items though.

To repeat myself from another old thread, a moral code nearly indistinguishable from the one we currently embrace can be derived simply and without involving religion. It merely requires use of the thermodynamic laws and a single assumption that greater efficiency is better (more moral) than lesser efficiency. It works!

Sheesh FuzzyBear, your graphic description sure destroyed all my fantasies about old age. I was certain that what I saw on "Coccoon" was real and I was really looking forward to it. SeattlePioneer, what can I say, you're right. And Hunt, about that nagging spouse thing. I've noticed something along those lines as well. A couple of years ago, I called my wife from the emergency room after an emergency EKG. Her first words were, "So are you going to die or what?" Now I wake up in the middle of the night and tell her with a muffled voice, 'really, I don't need another pillow..' I get similar interactions from most women, come to think of it. My secretary frequently tells me to kiss her xxx...and then she won't let me. So that image, Sturgen, of an angry cub mom coming after me, is almost a natural state. And my thought is, why run?

Evmori, the thought just occurred to me that perhaps this is actually a conspiracy. BSA and ACLU team up to swindle feckless governments out of huge settlements. BSA cons them into sweetheart deals and then, WHAM!!!, the ACLU drops the hammer. Wow, what a great story!

Hunt, I don't know what Bob White meant by it but in practice, giving the scout all of the names of the respective MB counselors is exactly what is done...when more than one counselor exists for the MB. At least around here. It worked that way when I was a boy as well. The problem is, now there just isn't a comprehensive MB program for the district, so it is difficult to identify more than one MB counselor for many of them.

2x4's? Drywall? Around here we call that 'mulch'.

I personally tried not to allow my son to do a merit badge with me as the counselor. Not that he wanted to anyway, but I was the only counselor available for one MB. I felt it was better for him to meet new people and learn from them. I relate this fact to other parents in the troop as well and I think they understand my rationale. But I don't object to them as a counselor for their sons if they choose to do so - it doesn't happen very often anyway.

I tend to agree with SR540Beaver. But Bob White caused me to try to remember how I interact with a few persons in BSA leadership. I mostly react at summer camp when I am disappointed by the physical appearance of the camp staff, themselves. Need to do something about that dining hall... I mostly keep my thoughts to myself except for one of them who is a good friend. I have many times warned him that should he fall out of a boat, the best we can do is throw a rope on him and drag him to shore. Seriously! SeattlePioneer, I hate to tell you fella (actually, I take diabolical pleasure), with a few years on you, I know that that sight is NEVER going to be pretty...at any weight. And it's only going to get worse and worse and there's nothing you can do about it. Have a nice day.

Regarding that $24,000+/- bill, Eamonn (in the other thread on liability) listed some accident coverage limits for the Jamboree, numbers that usually would not cover this bill. See: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=95028&p=2 Anyone know what would happen in this event? Is the non-Jamboree coverage much better? And there's that exclusion for declared and non-declared war...good grief.

I can't reveal how, but I have had an opportunity to examine many dozens of public schools in this region. I have observed that principals make a huge difference in the overall quality of the school. All of them have nearly absolute discretion over use of the facilities. This may be similar to your area. Some of the principals are imaginative and smart and the schools reflect this in the quality of instruction and the overall program. Other principals are, ahem, not. This variation could explain the differences you see in policies on after-hour access. Just a thought.

So, what about that $10K death benefit? If your child was just killed and BSA's insurer just handed you condolences and a check for $10K, how would you feel? How would you react? I'll wager that more than a few people would start looking for some deep pockets - with a vengeance.