packsaddle

Sorry guy, that was tongue-in-cheek for Acco40. I guess I should have put one of those pesky smiley things on it.

You know, I did think about those little flags people still have on their cars but forgot to mention them earlier. They experience hurricane-force winds nearly every day and eventually fray to pieces or they fall or break off. And then we drive over them on the highways. Not very respectful. Anyone remember the flag decals for car windows that an oil company (Gulf Oil?) was distributing as a promotion many years ago? I remember outrage over that desecration as well. Edited part: Rooster7, I guess we were typing at the same time. Anyway, I don't write this to you often but - I agree.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

I think he's protesting the whole Guantanamo situation. I could be wrong.

"Naw, honey, it NEVER could be TOO big." But seriously, Kahuna, in NC (as I remember) if you get busted for speeding over 80 mph with a child in the vehicle, you can go to jail for child endangerment (I can't remember the specific wording for the crime). I suspect there are similar statutes out there for other states as well.

Point taken, although I'm not sure why the situation would be considered 'convenient'. I evidently misunderstood you to be in the position of defending the offending professional scouters. However, the quandry, as you put it, is not really a conflict that should stop action by anyone, in case that was your intent. A person who breaks one law still has a duty as a citizen to respond to another person who breaks a law. Regardless of a third party's opinion of the situation, the duty remains. I suppose this returns us to the apparent conflict between the black-and-white world versus the gray-scale world. Does any crime, no matter the 'size' (absconding with a pencil from the office, perhaps, or a non-criminal rule violation, not wearing scout socks) eliminate our ethical ability to accuse or convict someone of another crime, no matter the 'size' (fraud, child abuse, perhaps)? I think not. And if it does eliminate that ethical ability, well, I'm not sure that 'convenience' is the correct term to describe it.

The average sherpa carries a load that weighs more than he does. Listen to this: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4707462 Well, I thought it was interesting anyway.

ML2, I view this issue in terms of past experience. If the BSA database is managed today the way it has in the past, your personal information will be lost, corrupted, or accidentally deleted (along with our advancement and registration information) in a reasonably short time. I would not consider your concern a problem unless you need to rely on BSA to remind you of your birth date.

If you want to fly it upside-down I have no objection. I do, however, caution you that although your message is clear in YOUR mind, it is highly unlikely to be clear in anyone else's who view your statement. I support your feelings on this but I have to think there is a more effective way to protest.

Never thought this one would make it past one page. OK, I give up. I have never burned the American flag. But within the last year I've watched no less than a dozen burned. And I have no problem as long as there isn't a fire code violation or an environmental problem. I don't agree with the KKK but as long as they conform to local laws, they should be allowed to burn their crosses as well. And although I am in agreement with many goals of groups that also promote hate crime laws, I don't agree that because of the hate, those crimes are worse than identical crimes that do not contain an element of hate. At the same time, I realize we already punish intent in a variety of ways (assault with intent to kill, for example) so my thoughts are still open to better ideas. I also think this is largely a matter of political posturing - as it has every time the legislation has been passed up to the Senate only to be killed there. I hope it is again.

johndaigler, I agree. Interestingly, I think I remember respondents who (in a thread on communist weapons dealers and subsequent spun threads) seemed to be quite black-and-white regarding laws, ethics, and hierarchies of 'good and evil'. They seem to have ignored their own standards for this issue.

You would have to ask United Way in Atlanta for the list of organizations they support to answer that last part. But as for which ones do a better job than BSA, if they serve any real-live children at all, it is far better than taking the resources and serving none. That's a no-brainer.

"...to be made whole" is the terminology I think. Here is the site for anyone who's interested: http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/06/16/ford.vehicles/ Looks like Ford is trying to slip responsibility in some of these cases, at least. Noticed my vehicle is one of the ones listed but there is no recall for it yet. Think I'll park it outside tonight. Wait a minute....there's that squealing noise again comin' from the holler...

"If fraud took place that is for the courts to determine." Yep, the courts should determine the guilt or innocence as well as the punishment. Evidence seems to be running against the council on this, though. "The SE in Atlanta has nothing to do with the quality of scouting delivered in any scout unit and never was...." Huh? Who's blaming him for poor units? What poor units do you refer to? Surely not the fictitious ones invented by the council? The SE seems to be implicated in the fraud in which numbers were evidently padded. What are you referring to regarding accusations of poorly-performing units? I thought this was all about fraud.

If Johnny, the volunteer leaders, and the troop actually legitimately existed at some time, not merely as names on a council role, then there was an opportunity for those volunteers to muck things up. But if the above were merely phantom elements of a fraud, then the problem is the fraud itself and responsibility rests with those who perpetrated the fraud. And the perps of the fraud simply cannot be those phantom volunteers.

Perhaps, but it also might merely be imaginary blame for the nonexistent volunteers. We could just as well be discussing the days of Jim Bakker and PTL club (that's 'Pass The Loot' for those who don't remember) minus the gratuitous sex (I hope...gulp). Come to think of it, he's had a new show for about a couple of years now. Really turned things around. Think he could do a little consulting on business ethics for a large youth club?

The '500 boy' figure comes from a statement by Kevin Tullis, a former DE for the Atlanta Area Council. He made this speculation after leaving BSA and pursuing a career in another business. The paragraph that contains the figure states: "United Way President Mark O'Connell said his group was told by the Scouts that nearly half of the 46,000 youths served in its 13-county region are black. But Tullis said he'd be surprised if minority numbers topped 500 in Atlanta." The '500' figure also occurred in a statement by cubmaster Cedric Samuels, "City of Atlanta registration figures show 8400 boys in three overwhelming minority districts when there are apparently less than 500 active." As far as I know, there still is no reliable determination of the actual number of minority or disadvantaged boys in scouting for that council. Unless one still believes the figure that is an order of magnitude or two larger. I do not understand the need to try to lay the blame on Mr. Samuels or other leaders of Atlanta packs and troops. The volunteers serving the few boys that actually ARE in scouting are doing their job. The volunteers are not the liars and cheats responsible for 'cooking the books'. Alternatively, it is irrational to indict volunteers who don't even exist for failing to bring in more boys. Though, I suppose as long as those failed volunteers are imaginary, they'll do just as well as scapegoats as they did for the imaginary numbers. After all, until recently, the council people were satisfied to report imaginary boys and imaginary leaders in return for real monetary gain.

juris, I think there's a chance you may not hear this from anyone else, so welcome to the forums. Please keep in mind that here, we're probably all jerks...at least in someone's view. Anyone know who that person is?

TRUSTWORTHY A Scout tells the truth. He keeps his promises. Honesty is part of his code of conduct. People can depend on him. These people have crossed the line and they must be KICKED OUT! And let the legal system do whatever is appropriate. Like Ross Perot said, we need to shovel out the barn. And I think that doing it very publicly would send a positive message to other people who are like those of us who really care about the boys. Edited part: The more I consider the social justice aspects of this the angrier I get. Are most of these scandals at the expense of underprivileged boys? If so, it's disgusting, really disgusting. I doubt that if there actually were any real enemies of scouting, they could do more damage than the collapse of this house of cards. "Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive"(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

You DOG! I am soooo envious! Are you really going to Yellowstone next week? I guess I'll be there, let's see, first or second week of July. What trails do you plan to be on? Oops, maybe this should be on a different thread, couldn't help myself. Edited part: Oops again, I forgot...we count every legitimate night of camping after they become scouts, at least that's our interpretation (the interpretation we serve?). And as for the backpacking requirement, the boys have ample opportunities to complete that easily within their first six months to a year in the troop.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Heck, you already knew that anyway. But forget the state lines, it's southern Appalachia. I'm close enough to 'Deliverance' film sites that I can almost hear Yankees squealing from time to time.

scoutldr, I understand what you say. For me it's just another day. But every day throughout the entire year, when my son or my daughter asks me to help with something and I get to work with them. And then they thank me for teaching them just a little bit more, every one of those days is a father's day to me. I don't need the stuff either, I just need to know they are well and to give of myself...to them.

This seems like a bizarre situation to me. What was its origin?

So...this thread must be one of the 'hot sheets'. I suppose there's another 'bug' roaming the planet, better get my defibrilator (or whatever it's called) and start the hunt. And Ed, I sympathize with the drunk driver thing, been there, done that. But regarding the repeat, uhhhh, PM me with your address. I want to try to avoid that area. Seriously, I have the same feeling about GM and Chrysler products...they make pretty good anchors. I guess any utility vehicle is going to be high maintenance by definition. I'll stick with my old '67 International. On blocks in the front yard. Under my Confederate flag. Nesting chickens on the seat.

I just take spare batteries. Depending on the camera, turning off the screen and merely using the viewfinder can greatly increase battery life. Also I try not to use the flash unless necessary. I have a full version of Photoshop to tweak everything on the final photos I think are worth keeping. I sympathize with the numbers thing. Using film I was quite judicious about choosing a shot, composing the frame, etc. Like the photography MB discusses. But now, I just burn digits on the card and then dump the junk later. Regarding the latency of the shutter, some cameras are quite slow (I have one of these, an old Nikon) and others are almost identical to the SLR film cameras in shutter speed and features, fully automatic to fully manual settings. Depends on the model you have.

How about making them practice a 'swim rescue' exercise in uniform? That should work.