packsaddle

Fat butts? Has someone been peeking? The analogy is to artistic creativity - which I think is a reasonably good analogy. However, park your butt (whatever the size) on that piano bench and give it a try. Either you will have musical talent (regardless of instruction) or not. It will not be your choice. You can always choose to play (or not) but you cannot choose to have (or not to have) the innate talent.

Why does it have to be at a military base? There's plenty of space out there in the private domain. One possibility for an alternative: a small town in the wide-open spaces that would like to boost its economy with a huge recurring event. As a model Sturgis, SD might serve as an example. Or perhaps Roswell, NM...that would be an entertaining fit.

A few observations. First, the long-term vested interest in APH is showing now showing the risk side of the situation...an entrenched plan is rather inflexible if a change is required. When BSA embarked on the 'private club' strategy, there must have been people who considered this risk. If they did not prepare for it at the time then that's tough. They should have remembered the motto. Second, regarding the 'training' rationale for military involvement, my experience over years working for the Army cause me to set a red flag when I hear such justifications. I suspect there is a lot more to the 'training' justification, deep below the surface, than appears on the surface. The Army contracts most of such activity in other cases. My antennae sense a rationalization for a decision that has been made elsewhere. Just a thought. Third, getting back to the flexibility thing, this is actually an opportunity for BSA to show it's stuff, so-to-speak, and come in with a new, innovative plan for these venues. It is a challenge, I admit, but we should be up to it, right? We shouldn't have to rely on big political favors to a private club, right?

I doubt that there is a single 'formula' for attracting volunteers. It will depend on the makeup of the community and nebulous factors relating to attitudes, lifestyle, etc. If this unit needs volunteers all it takes is an open appeal to fill the need. If anything we have so many volunteers that such occasions rarely occur. Therefore, many of the potential volunteers take for granted that they are not needed. It is a sort of negative feedback effect but easily overcome.

Ed, what will be gained by TJ's answer to your two questions? He merely stated that he did not 'choose', but that he merely 'is' gay. The only reason for further interrogation that I can identify is that the interrogator doesn't believe TJ's statement. Your opinion on this is already clear and in conflict with his statement. Here's the problem: 1)If you believe TJ's statement, then the two questions are gratuitous and needlessly intrusive. 2)If you do not believe his statement, then why would you believe his answers to your further questions and, therefore, why ask them in the first place? Is there any chance that his answers will change your opinion? If yes, I congratulate you. If not, why belabor this?

scoutingagain, "It just bothers me that so many reasonable people still believe..." Find a copy of "Leadership and Self-Deception" and read it. All of this (this entire thread) and more will begin to make perfect sense. Careful though, you may not enjoy the implications of what it means.

stlscouter, I am embarrassed on your behalf. TJ, I think your handedness analogy is a reasonably good one. However, I think perhaps that a better analogy would be to the unpredictable occurrence of musical or artistic prodigy. The story of David Helfgott comes to mind. Such wonderful gifts to humanity clearly have a genetic component to them but we are far from understanding the mechanisms. Same for intelligence - obviously heritable to some extent but also far from understood. Society cannot force these gifts into existence but society can allow them to blossom. Or kill them with repression. I too, agree with the local option idea. I would include the atheist membership as well. I usually defer all the questions surrounding the myths to Prometheus. I understand he has some free time.

Cautiously backing away from the engineering perspective and...accidentally bumping into statistics: 'Normal' has a very clear meaning and has to do with the distribution of the residuals about the mean. However, if one examines the idea carefully, there is nothing, NOTHING, in nature that is normally distributed. Normal, then would be abnormal in this world.

One look at Richard Boone was all it took to make me hetero.. Folks, the genetics of development is way beyond simple traits - the way this discussion has gone. Anyone seriously interested in learning about it needs to take a university course or two. Gern, if Ed wants to treat his view (choice) as the null hypothesis, the twin studies offer ample evidence to reject. Fact is, this discussion is flawed by a strong presence of prejudice. And THAT is what needs to be addressed by BSA.

Unless the screening process has been very flawed, most adoptive parents are, by definition, highly motivated and likely to care for and nurture their children. I admire them all greatly. When things change in society, there is a tendency for resistance by many people, for better or worse. The view that, in some way, gay parents are going to 'cultivate' gayness is bigoted and potentially hurtful of those children. But things are changing as I mentioned in the other thread, and as long as we keep fighting for what is right, it will be for the better.

The views on this issue are not likely to be easily changed, so just a few observations. I have known gay parents to be as loving and nurturing as any other parents. And while someone asserted that the term 'parent' is in question in this case, any adoptive parents are subject to that criticism. It has more to do with care and responsibility than it does with gametes. This troop does not exclude gay parents, avowed or otherwise, from activities. If a gay parent, avowed or otherwise, signed the application then I would raise no objection to their membership. For that matter I would also view the application by a gay non-parent in a similar way. I suspect that I am not alone. Matt, I agree with your feelings on harming children. It continues to elude me how bigoted people seem to think there is no connection between how a family is treated and how a member child is treated. I see the harm very clearly and it extends from BSA policy, at least in the way it is interpreted by some. I do take small issue with one assertion. In the past couple of years I have met hundreds of young persons or all kinds who have, in various ways, threatened their own lives. Such a decision can be rationalized in many ways and they can claim their actions originated from many influences but in all the cases I met, the decision itself came from within, not without. TJ, as I have mentioned in the past, things are changing for the better. They may not be changing quickly but I see it. However, the gom jabar is always going to be there in some form. I'll stand with you and Matt in fighting it. As for the last post by OGE, sometimes the best way to change things is similar to the best way to address an enemy... live well.

Unless I know the person is a liar, if they tell me, "Boy Scouts of America is a religious organization,..." I tend to take that at face value. BSA is a religious organization that limits "...the occupancy of its real property, which it owns or operates for other than a commercial purpose, to persons who believe in God or to give preference to persons who believe in God." Seems clear to me.

Today, when I stepped out of the car into a deep puddle, and opened the back door only to have the lantern fall out and shatter on a rock, and realized at the end of the day that my socks didn't match and that I had slept in my sleeping bag inside out...and a hundred of other similar incidents over the past couple of weeks, I take myself way too seriously...yeah, right! However: When boys ask for help or when they want to talk, I take them very seriously. Not 'too seriously'. Maybe I don't understand the question.

I have recently noticed armadillos squashed on the roads just a little south of my home here in the Blue Ridge. Coyotes have been here for quite a while. I guess I need to do some more reading now to figure out the whole 'Juris' thing. I've been to Woolaroc. That's where I bought MY hat (another thread). Beav, do you remember what I said your new moniker reminded me of in a PM to you? That was a long time ago. ..... State Road 540 road kill. I still can't get past that for some reason. For what it's worth, daytime highs have been in the 70s in Canada (just north of Lake Superior). And people are sweating profusely. Go figure.

Trevorum, I've got your number, you trouble-maker, you. A little advice, give up on the grammar thing. I find it difficult enough to police my own (and I many times fail), the others would be way too much. I'm outa here.

Be careful how you wield that black magic.

You could just keep bumping into them, claiming that you don't see them.

Ahem. ...ideas missing... Really!

Thanks for the data. That was useful. SR540Beaver, First it is really hard to type your moniker quickly. Second, I can picture it now - our week at camp, second morning. You are stumbling around with an empty coffee cup, eyes barely open and just wishing for a good jolt. I am bouncing off the walls as usual whistling and singing and doing everything I can to cheer you up and make your life miserable. You know,I don't know why I haven't been shot long before now. "try to look on the bright side of life..."

Hunt, if I read your interpretation correctly, a situation where a religious group attempts to place a monument will almost by definition fail the test after this decision. Did I get that right? An interesting experiment - a biker gang attempts to erect a giant menorah... you know, sometimes its just hard to come up with this stuff. I'm much happier with the occasions when hundreds flock from miles around to pray at a stand of Kudzu that looks like Jesus. OK by me as long as that's not public kudzu.

Great link, thanks. In our area (Southeast) I've seen Grummans in great shape (no dents, few scratches) go used for around $300. In fact, I'd consider it myself for that price. I only have, let's see, 5 canoes so far, I can always use another and I don't have aluminum...

I agree with the canvas shop idea. But if you can't swing that there are always the options of buttons or velcro.

Gulp, I hesitate to ask...Am I ilk too? Wait a minute, why do I care about the answer? Nevermind.

So...is the term 'ilk' intended to insult the person to whom it is applied? If I referred to someone as Jewish or Christian ilk (assuming that they actually are Jewish or Christian), would that person likely be offended? What about KKK or nazi ilk? Or in the baseball context, Yankee or Braves ilk? Knowing the context of its use, this often seems to be the case. But I think the insult is in the context and not the term. Am I wrong? Wait a minute...do the Braves still play baseball?

I would be happy if there was a summer camp ban on coffee AND soft drinks along with all tobacco products. And it should be applicable to the boys AND to the adults. Just call me a happy guy...happy, happy, joy, joy...