packsaddle

I am also a fiscal conservative and I loathe the current national debt trends. I support a flat tax system. No loopholes, no deductions, no exemptions, PERIOD. The return should have about three lines: Income, Tax, Payment/Refund. It should take about 5 minutes out of my life. It will never happen.

I can't add much to what LongHaul, SA, and Trevorum have written, I agree. This is simply a tragic mistake that is, in fact as of yesterday, life-threatening. And Cheney has taken responsibility, as he should. Now I just hope the victim is able to recover his health.

As another old member of this forum, who used to post here often, advised in the past, if the scout has met the requirements as written, he should be awarded the rank. Turning 18 tomorrow does not, by itself, eliminate the chance for completing the BOR. I have been involved in several sensitive situations now where adults with strong opinions seemed to want to expand the requirements because they "just don't think he deserves the rank." So far I've been able to help the boys avoid appeals, they were awarded the rank. So far. I hope I will continue to have the skill to show prejudice for what it is and to help boys achieve what they have in them to achieve.

I guess I should qualify a statement I made. I actually HAVE been bitten numerous times, just not by poisonous ones. The most recent occasion: Saw a big black rat snake attempting to cross a four-lane highway on my way to work one morning. I knew someone behind me was going to aim for it so I stopped and ran up to it. It saw me and instantly coiled, ready to strike. I grabbed it and only was bitten once. Then I got back into my vehicle (Mountaineer), borrowed from a friend. Then I realized...I didn't have any way to hold this snake and drive at the same time. So after a few moments of male contemplation, I just set the snake down in the floor of the passenger seat and drove on to work. I'd glance down from time to time to make sure the snake hadn't moved and everything was fine until I parked the vehicle. The snake was gone. I carefully got out and then looked under the seats. No snake. I closed it up tight and got my co-worker and together we probed every accessible place, seat cushions, floor mats, everything. No snake. That evening I drove home with the vehicle that I had borrowed from a young lady hoping that the snake had gotten out undetected. I was in a moral dilemma: Do I tell her...or not? So what would you do in this situation? This young lady is deathly afraid of snakes. I'll tell everyone what happened later. Or....you can have some fun and complete the story with assorted endings - which is what I did in my mind for a while during my dilemma.

FYI, speaking from the SE, coral snakebites are rare and the eastern range restricts them to the coastal plain. And the range of cottonmouths also ends approximately at the 'fall line', thereby limiting the types of poisonous snakes available in the uplands (rattlers and copperheads). But I have often been asked to identify dead harmless snakes, chopped into smithereens by ignorant persons with a hoe. I'd say, "that is a dead non-poisonous snake." They wouldn't believe it. So I've created a new mythical creature to describe these unfortunate animals, the 'copper-mouthed rattlemoccasin'. Rolls right off the tongue. Nice info, CalicoPenn and Beavah. On a recent nature hike I took the boys on, I told them that we'd be lucky to see a snake of any kind. And then we found several water snakes (which are often killed as cottonmouths) and a really big, beautiful copperhead which I nearly stepped on in the undergrowth. We gathered around the copperhead and I used the animal to demonstrate several aspects of snake behavior. Then we left it where it was and went on our way. Over the years I have seen hundreds of pit vipers in the woods, mixed up with thousands of boys and other people. And never a bite.

There is also a perspective in which $239 isn't all that much per year. If the parents of this unit KNEW the money was going to be spent on the unit and their sons, they'd have no problem coming up with that, probably more. But to them (and to me, for that matter), the comment about council people hired to fund-raise their own salaries has the ring of truth. Outside of the camp (and we'd pay more for that too) this council doesn't have much of a presence in the lives of the boys. Except, of course, at FOS time. That said, if a council brought this figure to the parents and said they had to pay, at least this would be an honest deal. The council would be laying it on the line and the parents could vote for those salary lines with their checkbooks. The market would take care of everything after that.

Sheesh guys, it sure doesn't take long on one of these threads does it?

Huh? I feel much cleaner and refreshed, pretty much the same as every other time I shower. Is this what you were asking?

I'll try to answer the question in a straightforward manner. I am associated with a teen group that is mixed gender and mixed orientation. When we have a sleepover or 'lock in' we merely provide good chaperones and make all of them sign in advance an agreement to refrain from certain activities including drugs, violence, sex, anything threatening to the group, and anything that tends to isolate individuals or couples. That only leaves music, dancing, food, videos, outdoor activities, etc. The chaperones stay up all night with whoever is still awake and then we sleep it off after it's over. Once the weekend starts, peer pressure alone is sufficient to keep the chaperone job fairly easy. They're a great bunch of kids.

Brent, not the same district. Perhaps my 'backyard' metaphor was the wrong one. In the same general region would be more accurate. Your bullets can't quite reach here. But we are close enough to see and know the community attitudes around us...and in that we have much in common. The communities are just different.

Brent, I'm practically in your back yard. I think the difference is that this unit primarily serves a community around a university and in that sense, it is unlike most of the rest of this 'red' state. Your assessment may be correct about your unit and the larger area. I only stated what I observed for our unit and immediate area. As for the contradiction, there are two things to remember. First, the worst thing we risk with the unit is to get bounced out of the organization. When government breaks the law regarding BSA, a lawsuit may result. Second, I have always promoted personal responsibility and personal freedom. Regardless of whether in the face of big government, or the thought/morality police in BSA. If a person signs on the line, then that is on them as far as I am concerned, and it is not part of my responsibility to investigate further. When the responsibilities of volunteer leadership are written to include 'outing' fellow good scouters who may happen to be gays or atheists, I will have to rethink the whole thing. But not until then.

At our local level, the lesson I have derived from past experience is that after the DE preached about gays and atheists at our Blue and Gold, our membership did a nosedive. Years later, after we no longer allow a DE to speak publicly at our meetings, and after we openly ignore religious and sexual orientation limitations, our numbers are thriving. It's almost as if families who do think the scouting program is important, don't think those issues are. Can't argue with success.

I do agree that we need better enforcement. I wish the NPS and other agencies could get the funding they need to accomplish all they need to do. 'nuther topic, I guess. This weekend we did a backpack into a very popular, newly-protected wilderness area. Thirty years ago when off-road vehicles were allowed in there, there was horrendous erosion, damage to streams, timber and wildlife poaching, and at one campsite alone, I personally picked up 15 garbage bags (the 50 gallon size) of litter, a lot of it associated with beer. I could have picked up more but that was all my vehicle would hold. Today, with limited access (foot-travel only) and LNT guidelines, some of those roads have 30 year-old trees and other cover vegetation - the others have deep layers of leaves and pine needles. Nearly all the trails are along old logging roads and all of them are in great shape now. And that camp site, we just came back from it and there wasn't a single piece of trash, before or after our visit. We left depressions in the leaves where our tents had been. The wind will take care of that quickly. LNT is really taking a lesson from the 'Tragedy of the Commons' and asking all those who share the resource to apply the golden rule. I think it is a good thing.

If an existing trail is not worn to the point that the cover has been killed, sometimes the case in these parts, then additional sublethal wear can still allow it to recover quickly. As you say, a heavily worn trail will take years to recover once traffic is rerouted. However, if I take a group over a rutted, muddy trail with grassy banks, even if I doggedly slog through the muck, I expect others in the party will opt for the more pleasant option. Result: greater damage. To make an analogy to access roads, vehicle traffic may have small impact on grass-covered lanes up to some threshold of wear. Beyond that threshold, the resulting erosion of the soil is intensified considerably by continued use. Much worse than spreading it out either in space or time. The simple answer to trail conditions is to limit numbers of feet and keep their impact to a level that allows quick recovery. When I speak of wildlife, I speak of everything including non-game species such as salamanders, snails, crayfish, etc. The chance that one of the boys is going to stab a deer or turkey with his pocketknife is slim. I also like to see the mosses, lichens, mushrooms, and understory plant species left intact. LNT

Following up on Beavah's post, all of us who care about LNT can probably create a prioritized list of behaviors based on our memories of past 'traces' we've seen left by others. My list would start, for example, with: Don't cut down trees or kill wildlife. And somewhere way down the list: Be absolutely quiet. For me, in addition to OGE's thoughts, if I know a particular trail has received excessive wear, I plan a different route so that my impact, at least, can be spread out and perhaps in that manner, lessened.

Trevorum, I'm wondering if your post on the purpose of society just flew past everyone? I'd comment except I agree. And Gern, you ever read 'Lord of the Flies'?

Merlyn, you read my mind as I was going through that other thread. If it isn't ignoring policy, it sure is local option!

Where I live I hear gunshots all around the area all year long. During the winter (both in and out of season) my work takes me past numerous remote sites and this weekend, for example, one bridge crossing had 6 fresh deer carcasses (does) and another had 8 dumped at the edge of the stream. I have no idea how many I didn't see that were washed downstream. I'm not sure how this relates to the topic but I do hate to see wanton waste of wildlife. These kills were not accidental (judging from the bullet wounds) and they were definitely wasted. I guess I am in sympathy with Captainron's most recent post. Such a waste.

I have noted before that unless one's understanding of genetics goes beyond mid-digital hair, discussion of developmental processes is a waste of time. Until one's knowledge of genetics is more substantial, one might as well quietly stick with whatever prejudice is there and try not to invite further embarrassment. Also, I happen to know that BSA already HAS gay leaders and other gay members. You just don't know who they are and I'm not going to 'out' them.

Berkeley did the right thing. BSA still has their right to discriminate and BSA still has equal access. What BSA can't have is privileged access...its cake and the ability to eat it too. BSA knew there would be consequences and this is one of them. Tough luck. Get on with business.

Same here. It could be that he is a true conservative. I'd go with that.

Regarding equal animal rights, I add that this is a very old idea. In 1386 a trial was held in which the accused had allegedly disfigured a child. The accused stood before the court in a waistcoat, breeches, and with white gloves. The accused was sentenced to first receive similar maiming, then to be garroted and hanged at the village scaffold. The accused was, literally, a pig. At this insitution, we must undertake extensive training and certification to handle, trap, raise, or kill any vertebrate. However, we are completely free to do anything we want to invertebrates - with no regulation whatsoever. I also agree that plants have been given short shrift as has the whole Phylum Protista. Now all of you need to hold your noses: this reminds me of a very bad, old Southern joke: Medical research here has abandoned the use of lab rats and instead substituted yankees. Advantages are that yankees are cheap, can be found everywhere, and you don't get as emotionally attached when it's time to kill them. My tobacco-spittin' buddies camped up on the side of the hill above the Chattooga River love that one.

EagleInKY, I also always thought it meant, "People Eating Tasty Animals". So again my wife is saying, if the PETA supporters would just be faithful to their ideals and reject all medical treatments that were developed using animal tests, this situation would correct itself fairly quickly. So Judy, where are you guys going fishing. If I am back from Yellowstone in time, I might just take you up on the offer. BTW, regarding catch-and-release, there have been studies that show for some species (and this is also size-dependent) the stress of the catch is enough to doom a large fraction of that catch. I have observed this for striped bass. For example after a morning of a heavy catch and release, an hour or so later, many of those fish are dead or dying on the surface, hook wounds easily recognizable. (Of course if one is quick with the dip net, fillet knife, and a cooler....)

Now THAT, Ed, might indeed be a different matter. The way biology is taught is somewhat variable but there are some common features that are necessary if students are to be prepared for later studies in college - and that is often an important factor for the establishment of curriculum standards. Nevertheless, most courses attempt to provide an introductory section in which the history of the field is presented. The history is important in order to gain a sense of direction in science. It allows us to see our philosophical origins and better understand how we developed modern ideas. Although 'intelligent design' is a modern fabrication, the idea that ID exploits is, of course, implicit in many views of the world that are based on faith. And to the extent that the faiths (and the list of these is long) affected scientific advances, their contributions to the advancement of science are important, even if negative. I could accept, in the introductory section, the presentation of failed or false ideas, such as ID, as examples of how science has continued to progress in spite of some negative religious, political, and social forces. And after the introduction, then get on with the actual course in biology. Is this what you had in mind? OGE, I hope your good-natured mention of transmutation wasn't aimed at me. I could also add that particle accelerators, ahem, are a rather recent development. Just ask Theodoric of York. Scoutndad, I sincerely appreciate the exchange between you and SR540Beaver and I agree with Beav's summations. I stayed out of the exchange for two reasons: Beav was doing a great job, and my power supply died for the day so I didn't get to read it until last night late. You are one of many persons to perceive something that was either unstated or unintended. All of us are susceptible to this and you can accept my assurance that Beav is correct and my statement was aimed not at religion but at any religious idea promoted as science. I will take one step toward reconciliation and offer that if anyone can provide a religious concept for which an experiment can be constructed, thereby being falsifiable, and if the observations and results can be repeated independently by others, and if you are prepared to reject the concept if such experiment provides evidence for that rejection, I am willing to consider that it could qualify as science. Many scientists would be very interested in seeing the results and whether they could repeat the experiment. On this, however, ID fails miserably.

Fishsqueezer, I agree with your bottomline assessment on waste of time. However, I remind everyone that comparison of ID to alchemy is still giving way too much credit to ID. Alchemy was, at least, an important historical precursor to modern chemistry. Although much of alchemy has been discredited, at least alchemy had a hypothetical structure and an observational basis. Alchemy and similar chemical ideas (such as phlogiston) are instructive as examples because they demonstrate the power of science to 1) identify false concepts, and 2) to discredit them. In contrast, ID has no such observational or experimental basis and, in fact, depends on ignorance for its existence. It has nothing in common with science.