packsaddle

In addition to the language limitation, I'll wager that few of us (me included) know more than one verse of the anthem. Some of us don't know anything more than the tune. Oh say can you see, Any black bugs on me, If you do, Squish a few, Save the rest for our dinner.

Hunt, this doesn't technically qualify because it was never consumated...but years ago when I was writing an op-ed article critical of several organizations, including BSA, council basically warned me not to 'or else'. I put it back on the shelf. Some day I may take it back off the shelf but I know what the potential consequences are. The thing is, in this case BSA successfully suppressed my public opinion because I decided it was to the benefit of the boys for me to remain involved in the troop as a leader. In essence, BSA held my leadership hostage and demanded public silence. And they were successful. If I someday decide to voice that opinion and I am ejected as a result, technically BSA will gain nothing because I will be completely free to voice that opinion publicly as a former leader AND I may also have achieved some notoriety as a result of their action. The real harm done, again, is to the boys who may miss a good leader. I recognize BSA's legal right to suppress an opinion in this manner. I also think it is cowardly, hypocritical, and contrary to scout spirit.

I really, REALLY disagree with the prohibition of lasertag. But I comply with it. So I tend to agree with most of what Gern said and Lisabob as well. I simply ignore the 'my way or the highway' types. They exist. And yes, at the council level I've been told to 'button it' or something bad will happen. So I disagree in private and focus on the troop. Someday if I find that I am no longer able to contribute at the troop level, I may choose to make a loud noise...I can't predict. But it is possible to disagree and stick with the program.

Hey, NJ, Nice to read you again! The following link is one of many that gives a brief history of the tune and words: http://ww2.lafayette.edu/~gilbertn/Star-Spangled-Banner.html As someone mentioned, the tune predates the Francis Scott Key version of the words and has an interesting history. And it wasn't our national anthem until 1931. "Play ball!" might just as well be part of it. I guess those who object to the recent version probably objected to Jimie Hendrix's version as well. Maybe even Jose Feliciano's version. But the interesting thing is that the law establishing it as the national anthem DOES NOT specify the words. So Spanish is just fine as long as the old drinking tune is preserved. And as for the admonition of our marginally literate president, I agree with Scoutldr....W could use some work on English as well, muy mucho.

In case no one else said it, welcome to the forums Polarbear. I carried a sheath knife for years, an official BSA abomination that couldn't hold an edge for anything. It eventually splashed in a deep lake in 1973 and I have never missed it. I have done everything I needed to do since with my Kabar stockman. And it holds an edge better than anything else I have ever owned. Yes, we have knives in the cook kits. Yes, fillet knives in tackle boxes. Both are used for those specific purposes...and not carried otherwise.

I agree. It is more of an individual activity that is recognized, but not awarded, by BSA. I encourage the boy and his parents to do this as a separate activity.

So, do libraries give any kind of preferential treatment to BSA? They don't around here as far as I can tell.

Welcome, Csquid. I love Oregon and I'd move there if I could escape the family. One of my personal favorite places on earth is the Three Sisters Wilderness especially the Obsidian Cliffs area. Heck, the whole McKenzie River area for that matter. Well, add the coast...I guess I like the whole state. Welcome. P.S. I sure wish we could get Henry Weinhardt's Vanilla Cream Soda here in the South. Best on earth. You Oregon folks make pretty good pie too.

Eamonn, I think I was confused at first. Are you towing the vessel that far? Or are you driving to a destination and sailing on another vessel? At first I was thinking your trip on the boat was going to be 1500 miles r/t and I was so envious. My personal rule is if I tow, I have to sail an equal or greater distance when I get there. So far the wife won't let me tow it to FL...she knows she'll never be allowed to go and I'll probably never return. But one can dream...

As Rush Limbaugh says, "It's all about money."

Thick skin, Cajuncody. That's what it takes. We also employ older boy scouts to do the judging and run the races. At the district level, I do the weigh-in and bring my lab balance...many complaints, "...that's not what it weighed back on (you fill in the date)..." so I just take my calibration standards out and check to make sure I'm right. I am. Silence. They either weigh the limit or less or they don't race. And they meet the written standards for dimensions and construction as well. The only cars I've disqualified were ones drooling with silicone or other lubricants or the ones with exquisitely machined, polished, and hidden wheels (non-regulation). The boys must have slaved for hours at a machine shop for those cars, I felt kind of bad. But I don't have a dog in the fight so they can just think of me as being equally hard on everyone. And then I love it when the kid who actually DID make his own car wins. The 'good sport' trophy is a great idea. We also have a strong competition for best design. Some of the boys don't even race, they just go for the design. OK by me if it's OK bayou.

On the long trips for which I have been responsible, we estimated the fuel cost per head and then when the receipts were tallied, the participants split the actual cost - usually fairly close to the original estimate. If a parent or leader chooses to drive separately but this isn't required, then they are on their own nickel. If someone is asked to pull the troop trailer, they get full reimbursement. To be fair, we probably should reimburse on a per mile rate to cover wear and maintenance, but so far I'm the only one who has this perspective.

'contraband' probably isn't an accurate term for it because the badges haven't been prohibited or smuggled. If BSA has a legal leg to stand on (and agreeing with Hunt, I doubt it) then under the right circumstances I guess they could try to take some legal action. Personally, I think the words are there for intimidation value and nothing more. I'll let LongHaul provide his interpretation.

But better than the image suggested by the word, 'speedo'.

Wow, I was surprised to find out that the 50-miler could be done by bicycle. OK, but the 5-day rule is written in stone (rather, requirements). On bikes, you might consider a 100-miler just to pass the time.

I can't remember our council doing anything like this. But I'd be OK with it. But then...... I'm oblivious to fashion and half the time I walk around with my fly open or my belt unbuckled or something. So the uniform would probably be an improvement.

We wore Levi pants as well and only fired shorts, single shot only. A surrogate target was often employed, dragging a large can on a string. No one was ever hit (except with the BBs which stung like heck especially if someone was careless and hit you in the neck or head). Crazy, to be sure, but somehow no one was killed. Today, with the availability of firepower that we have, I can't imagine what would have happened. I guess paintball is the answer. We didn't mess with bottle rockets but Roman candles were good. We also used things called 'aerial bombs' which were essentially small mortars with an explosive much more powerful than M80s. One 4th of July some really nasty people attacked some police officers using these things and seriously injured some of them. Shortly thereafter, those fireworks (along with real cherry bombs, TNTs, and M80s) were banned. So now we only have mamby pamby stuff that merely looks pretty. None of this, ahem, goes very far to disprove the women.

I'll give it a try. The line is fuzzy. At one extreme, if no tour permit is filed, if no uniform is worn, and if there is no association with BSA whatsoever, then that should satisfy the attorneys that BSA is free of liability for the outing and that the CO, the leadership, and the families assume all of the liability. At the other extreme, any 'workaround' or 'loophole' that is employed to rationalize the circumvention of the regulations is a violation of scout spirit. It may also consitute a self-deception by the troop. To me, a more honest approach would be to openly state that they disagree with the regulation and that they intend to violate it whenever they see fit. That at least is clear and all parties are then free to respond accordingly.

Trevorum, another interpretation might be that if he attained eagle rank, he is entitled to own as many eagle badges as he can afford. Kind of like having more than one patch on multiple uniforms. I guess (to bring this back to topic) this means that even if BSA could and wanted to revoke rank, if a person earned the medal they could keep it. I can't fail to notice that the contradiction of the letter of the regulation by the widespread practice of various collectors is by no means the only such contradiction between letter and practice. For badges and patches it might be the most trivial however. BSA obviously turns a blind eye as well...making them equally as unethical - it is, after all, THEIR regulation to impose.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

OK, I think I'm reading the right thing..please correct me if I am reading the wrong document: "All uniforms, badges, and insignia of the Boy Scouts of America may be used only by members of the Boy Scouts of America, registered and in good standing." Without reprinting the entire article, I think this is the bold passage to which you refer, LongHaul. It is entitled, "Uniform Rules and Regulations". Do I have the right one? Anyway, if this is correct, I don't see the restriction. It evidently applies to the 'use' of official stuff, not possession. If this regulation is interpreted to mean possession, then anyone who leaves scouting and is no longer registered is instantly in violation although I see nothing that BSA can do about it, as if they would want to. Am I missing something here? I interpret 'use' to mean 'wear' or 'display' as if one IS a member, or to misrepresent actual rank or position, perhaps. The enforcement aspect is unspecified...I interpret that to mean that Trevorum can stop trembling with fear, poor guy. Edited part: Oops, here...I think I found the part - fear this Trevorum: "Clause 9. All badges and insignia shall remain the property of the Boy Scouts of America subject to recall for cause by the Corporation or itsduly authorized representative." But this still says nothing about simple possession. One must wonder what the intent is of this statement. I suspect it is to guard against the scenario I mentioned earlier, you know, the sex change and all. I can just see it, I'm parading through New Orleans (or San Francisco) and suddenly the uniform police begin to strip me (literally) of my uniform...that is, of course, except for the very unofficial thong. OK, one more edit: Here's another paragraph from the real deal: "Clause 3. Restricted Sale and Use. The saleand use of the appropriate uniform as specifiedshall be restricted to members of the Boy Scouts of America who are registered and in goodstanding, according to the records of the organization. It shall be the responsibility of all members of the Boy Scouts of America and especially of all commissioned officers and chartered councils to cooperate with the Corporation in preventing the use of the official uniforms by those who are not members of the organization in good standing." Now this makes it clear that the purpose is as I surmised, prevention of 'use' by persons who are not members in good standing. So...is it possible to be a member but not in good standing? Or are they linked, loss of standing automatically being loss of membership? Someone want to clarify?(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

And at the same time, I agree with Trevorum. Trev, correct me if I misunderstand you, but I think the difference with G2SS and the paintball thing is that it has something to do with safety for the scouts. In contrast, for some of the issues that I think Trevorum and I are thinking about, there is no safety issue whatsoever, rather it is more of a matter of personal conviction and in those cases, BSA is doing what we think is unethical, possibly immoral. And we disagree. When I was a boy, we didn't have paintball so we used bb-guns and sometimes 22s (just kicking up the dirt near the opponent). We would have argued then, the same way paintball proponents argue today. Amazingly, some of the women I know think men are stupid. Go figure.

I agree with the sentiment by Trevorum. As I understand it, copyright merely limits the right to 'copy' something to the owner of the right, not the purchaser, unless the owner of the right specifically relinquishes that right. It doesn't mean that the owner of the copyright can confiscate the book (or badge) you just purchased from them. Officers of a court MAY confiscate an item if it is illegally copied in violation of the copyright, but only if the owner of the copyright pursues that action. So go ahead and swap all the emblems and badges you want, just don't knock off copies yourself. If you purchased an advancement award, it is your property and the fight to recover it by BSA would not be worth the effort...and they would lose anyway if you made a legitimate purchase. Unless the purchase agreement (receipt, in this case) clearly states BSA's right to take it back, the purchase is like the purchase of a baseball...unconditional. It's yours until you decide to sell it or give it to someone else. Some items, like passports and drivers licenses, actually BELONG to a government and they can be taken. But I can't think of many cases where normal goods have similar status. Hypothetically, if I were an atheistic, gay transexual activist and I picked up a scout uniform off eBay, I would wear it in protest without fear of anything more than a lot of noise on these forums.

jmenand, in case no one has said this already, welcome to the forums! I read your post with interest. I agree with much of what you said. However, I would like to know your view on what you think 'moral relativism' is, especially why you think it is undesirable. I have heard and read the concept many times, usually in pejorative terms, but there has been great variation in the connotation, depending on the user. I would like to understand your view as well.

I agree wholeheartedly with Eamonn here. Paintball isn't merely pretending, it is firing an actual projectile at another person. I have mixed feelings regarding laser tag but I follow the rules. But in comparison, paintball is a slam dunk.

yellow_hammer, my comment about name-calling was not aimed specifically at you, nor at Gern, but merely a general comment (one I and others have repeated, often). No offence intended, it just seemed time to say it again. LongHaul, point taken and I agree regarding USSR, it was a technicality. I think I see LisaBob's point regarding wikipedia. I confront this from my students almost daily. In one sense it is a wonderful, evolving source of basic information. And when someone submits an edit to wikipedia, I understand that some process of verification is engaged although I have no idea what the process is. BUT, it is merely a place to begin for many topics and there is no substitute for sampling it and many other diverse sources to gauge a variety of views by different authorities. Believe it or not, a LIBRARY is still a great place to visit to learn something. Since the topic of this thread relates to Rooster7 (thinking bibliothecally here), I confess I was sometimes reminded of the question 'Q' once asked Worf on an episode of STNG, "Eat any books lately?" I still laugh when I think of that episode. Worf just glared. OK, maybe you had to 'be there'. Nevertheless, I have to agree with Beav and Lisa regarding who we're fighting, NOW, in Iraq.