packsaddle

Ed, years ago when I was CM the pack would do an annual cleanup at local public access areas. The public benefitted from our service every one of those years. But we didn't get free use of the ramps and didn't expect such. But the local university got a free pass for class use. I am OK with that but I would still prefer that everyone paid, no exceptions. Or am I missing something here?

"Do you believe in God?" is a question I have heard asked and have had asked of me often. The answers have varied from a flippant "sure.." to nervous discussions of what it is they are really asking. I never ask this of the boys. My religious background is irrelevant to whether I ask or not...they could give me any answer and I could never know if they were sincere or not. It is a waste of time. And the day that a voter registrar in NC asked it of me and informed me that in NC I would not be allowed to vote if I didn't believe in god, was the day I stopped giving a direct answer myself. Now, depending on the way it is asked, I inform them it is none of their business, politely..and in some cases very rudely. There is not one single other person on this planet who can know what I believe or see into my heart regardless of what I might choose to say to them. For them to ask such a question indicates a presumption on their part that they are far greater than they really are...an arrogance that I always decline to honor. Edited part: BTW, a Baptist minister once informed me that a Methodist was just a Baptist who could read. Moreover, I think Darth Vader was a Presbyterian, "...join with me Luke, it is your destiny." Somehow SciFi and religion always seems to mix easily. Such fun.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

I often confuse 'spin' with 'lies'. My feelings are similar to Gern's on this. Everyone should pay for services rendered. Moreover, I'd remove all tax-exemptions for that matter, and have all persons and organizations subject to the same tax liabilities, no exceptions.

I agree with Eamonn's thoughtful comments. I have never confronted a situation like this at the level of an eagle BOR but have frequently detected similar elements for some merit badges (usually from summer camp). I ask the boy what he did for certain requirements (duration of activity, papers written, etc.) and then I ask him if he thinks he fully met the requirements. Having planted the question, I pay little attention to the answer...that is more important for him to answer for his own conscience. As for future employment, one of the recent eagles from this unit was interviewed at his university by prospective employers for a prestigious internship. He proudly told me that the interviewer informed him that he was the only candidate who knew, and could express, the importance of teamwork and similar virtues. Life is good.

Back when nearly all of the troop was too young to qualify for Sea Base, I took them to MarineLab, a marine educational program with no age limits. MarineLab was started by Ian Koblick, one of the Jaques Cousteau generation but Ian decided to focus on education. Google his name and follow the links. We spent the week doing experiments and exploring all the ecosystems around the Keys using mask and snorkel. Some older boys who had been to Sea Base said they had more fun at MarineLab (there were other classes there as well...coed). The teachers and guides are abundantly qualified and (this being related to my field of study) I thought they did a magnificent job of depicting the entire ecosystem and instilling respect and appreciation in the boys. For more info: http://www.mrdf.org/mlhome.html

I really identify with Eamonn's post. When we're on saltwater for extended times we require hats, sunscreen, t-shirts with sleeves, and lots of drinking water. The boys line up front to back and apply the sunscreen to each other. Kind of like baboons grooming each other. No, what am I saying....EXACTLY like it. This year at camp, we had nearly constant rain the whole week so heat exhaustion wasn't exactly a problem but on other outings we soak the t-shirts to keep cool. Great water fights. But the female leaders don't seem so enthusiastic for some reason.

Another judgment call...a gasoline-powered leaf blower poses less of a safety hazard than a chain saw. And a battery-powered drill is quite different from a circular saw. I have watched one young man lose all of his fingers, another both his legs, and another his hand (non-boy scout situations) and I take great pains (so-to-speak) not to see such again, especially if I am the responsible adult. If I forbid a boy from using one of these tools and his parent objects, I defer to the parent (and let him supervise). I rarely have a parent object.

These variations are interesting. At the ranges I have observed, safety is the primary determining factor. One had a 'qualifying' session - anyone who couldn't learn how to use the sights to aim was not allowed to continue. At another, anyone who didn't follow the range rules was dismissed regardless of their stage of progress. When I was qualifying for concealed carry, anyone, at any time, who handled their weapon in an unsafe manner was dismissed. Made me feel a little safer.

Our camp has no such age limit, except for ATE and high adventure programs. Theoretically (and I know there's great variation in practice) if the blue card is used there is a line where the SM is supposed to approve that the boy can pursue a particular MB. It is possible, at that time, for the SM to work with the boy to ensure that he works on age-appropriate MBs. I consider 'age-appropriate' to be different for different boys and it doesn't take long for them to decide for themselves what they need to do, if an adult is willing to discuss with them their level of preparedness and the requirements facing them. If they insist on attempting something for which they are not prepared, I don't stand in the way....it is one more important lesson that they can learn in the process.

OK, my bad. Of course!... what was I thinking? Anything involving nudity is automatically indecent, the only way to avoid moral relativism in this issue. It can't be left to any subjective interpretation or else we're on that slippery slope to...not sure what, but it must be bad...oh yeah, moral relativism. After all if God had intended us to be nude we would have been born...uuuuhhhhh.

OGE, "can you beleive there are people who do stuff just to cause trouble?"...isn't this sometimes called civil disobedience? If so, I plead guilty. But (thanks for the reminder, Ed) perhaps YPT, no. But is mooning from the vehicle harmful? Probably not. By the whole troop? Maybe. As the bus goes through a small town as church lets out on Sunday morning? Spectacular! And if they do it from their own church bus with name and address prominently displayed on the side? Very, very poor judgment for sure. Explaining it all later to the deacons? Priceless.

Would that be a 'half-moon' or a 'full tuck'? Other than emphasizing America's growing 'crack' problem, I can't imagine how this could excite any sort of arousal. But I guess I could be wrong. Seems to be a situational response...depends on how the younger scout viewed the action (no pun intended). But I suspect this thread isn't specifically about mooning. Rather, it calls our attention to the potential for a prank to violate a YPT regulation or guideline. As I understand YPT, it is aimed at adults, especially leaders, who are not the likely culprits in pranks. And where there is a wide range of actions of concern for YPT, pranks also have a wide range. In fact, this thread should not be limited to pranks but should include other youth behaviors, perhaps especially those that are not intended merely as pranks. Edited part: Thanks lisabob, for reminding me of the youth-on-youth parts of YPT.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/news/14983668.htm Just seemed relevant somehow. Regarding helmet laws, South Carolina also repealed them years ago. I have long considered the repeal of the helmet laws for motorcycles to be part of a vast conspiracy by transplant surgeons. They really do refer to motorcycles as 'donorcycles'.

This is similar to the 'gray area' thread in many ways. And I've had to make more than one apology for ill-considered actions by the boys (they apologized too). What I like about Brent's skit (kissing the king's ring) and the 'ugliest man' skit is that both of them have rather harmless, clever twists that everyone enjoys, even the uninitiated 'target'. This summer, I informed the boys that ANY prank they decided to do must be cleared by me first. So they did one anyway without clearance (stealing another troop's sign). By coincidence, someone else also pulled a prank on that troop the same night by plugging their toilets. Guess who found themselves clearing the drains....hopefully learning a lesson in the process...and returning the sign as well. But moving the bed to the roof of the dining hall is potentially dangerous and could cause expensive damage to the roof material. The camp made it clear to the leaders that we would be responsible for any damage as a result of a prank. Fair enough. The risky element of pranks is that they usually involve a deception of some sort. And deceptions always might lead to an unexpected unpleasant situation. If the deception preys on someone's weakness or is dangerous, I join Fscouter's opinion. If it involves an outright crime (theft or destruction of property, for example) I condemn it as such. If it merely at pokes fun at me, I have thick skin - no problem. I just encourage them not to do it to anyone else.

Hi, nice to hear from you again. Are you the SM? If so, you seem already to have made the decision...or am I wrong? But to answer your question directly, the SM must make his best decision and I doubt that any one of us in the forum is in a better position to judge this situation than he is. Given only what you have related and if I was the SM, if I decided not to sign I would meet with the boy and his parents to explain why. If they subsequently provided compelling evidence that my judgment was wrong, I would then sign it. Not a pretty situation either way, good luck. I'll be interested in reading other opinions.

It is possible to have a 'clean' sense of humor. The skit in which a group of camp staff mimics what goes through the minds of a group of falling rain drops is an example. The humor is not found in the acting, nor is it found in the action...but rather in the clever twist of anthropomorphism applied to drops of water. The humor is in the unexpected thought and the surprise idea. It is a gift from a creative mind that allows everyone to be a little more creative themselves.

The man who gave me my moniker still refers to cokes as 'dopes'. Shrimp and grits is a SC culinary specialty that can be eaten any meal. Fish and grits make a great lunch, save the roe for breakfast (also with grits, of course). Salt and grease are Southern Allspice (according to my Yankee wife). In these parts (the upcountry), we refer to the coastal plain as 'the lowcountry'...and it fits well. Slow down for every little podunk town you go through or else you may end up squealing like a pig. Have a nice day.

Trevorum, We might all decide to advocate that people should not be the object of discrimination because of personal characteristics. We might advocate that all people should have equal access. We might advocate monogamous, loving relationships. Nahhhhhh!

While I agree with the spirit of Fscouter's response and I answer his last question...NO...the ethical issue I see here is not whether to allow tobacco use. To me that is clearly, NO. However, I see a problem when adults are allowed to use tobacco when the boys aren't - at scouting events. In this sense the ethical issue is the policy itself. BSA has the ability to ban tobacco absolutely. It seems hypocritical to me (and to many of the boys who have said the same thing) to maintain this flawed policy. Summer camp or other events are a great way to start to kick the addiction. An adult must be able to function one week without it. Fscouter, I'm not sure whether they word these things that way intentionally or not, but the wording, while clear enough for me, does allow wiggle room for those who don't see this clearly.

The nickname 'beav' MAY be confusing between Beavah and SR540Beaver, MAYbe not. On the other hand, I MIGHT reveal my original reaction to SR540Beaver's change of name and refer to him as 'roadkill'...or I MIGHT not. Either way, I agree with NJ and roadkill on this. I interpret it to mean that tobacco is prohibited. Period...no MAYbe about it. Except, of course, if a leader needs to sneak one in the corner. Sorry SR540Beaver, I couldn't resist. BTW, congratulations on kicking the stuff. It will be nice to know your children are now more likely to lose their father and bury you at a greater age.

A technicality, but the ruling does NOT deny access by the boys to scouting. It DOES deny them one form of information (backpack mail) and if scouting can't find another way to get the info out the effect may be similar. But technically, the boys still have access if they find out about it. BTW our schools also deny all backpack mail if not from the school. It hasn't hurt our recruiting at all.

Well, yeah. I suggested Sturgis back in that other thread. I, ahem, visited Sturgis last summer and it's not a big town. But it has plenty of wide open space all around. The bikes are great BTW. Mt. Rushmore was a joke to me. I remembered it from childhood, a small parking lot and just a few visitors and quietly enjoying the view. Now...street vendors, ice cream parlors, presidential impersonators posing for pictures with screaming children, and lots and lots of good ole American adipose tissue. I think Stone Mountain, GA is a more tasteful place now. And it's a lot bigger and didn't desecrate a holy place (although it does commemorate a bunch of traitors).

We're thinking alike. In another thread in the past on alternative sites I suggested using the Sturgis, SD model. That's practically across the street so I agree. Plenty of space there. So here's another possibility: Let's face it, Mt. Rushmore NM has become a joke. It is, for all practical purposes, a theme park. So let's admit what we've become and sell it to Disney and then get BSA to rent it. Plenty of parking and space. Rock climbing on the president of your choice, etc.

Maybe I should just go ahead and do it anyway to find out if that was an empty threat. It is tempting....

It really has been a long, long time...but I remember working all summer on a service project for my minister as part of my God and Country award. Have the requirements changed? And it took nearly a whole year of hard study, memorizations, explaining passages of the bible. I'm wondering if the bar has been lowered since that time.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)