packsaddle

This article is free but you have to register to read it: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/17/business/worldbusiness/17stem.html?fta=y In summary, Singapore has become a national haven for molecular biology, stem cell research in particular. Scientists from the US, notably in the article the National Cancer Institute, and other institutions dependent on public funds, are leaving to take their research where the action is. This is partly because of the Bush administration refusal to publicly fund stem cell research beyond what has already been established as human stem cell lines. However, the recent announcement that stem cell lines can now be established without destroying embryos would seem to have met the objections. Not so: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/26/opinion/26sat2.html?th&emc=th The Bush administration and its political base still refuse to budge. Either way, scientific advances in biology are slowly slipping away from the US and to scientifically friendlier places. We get what we ask for - fair enough.

When I was a boy scout, 'white gas' referred to Amoco Super Premium and it was, indeed, an absolutely colorless fuel with a high octane and high vapor pressure. It was also the only unleaded fuel to be found at the gas pump. As I understand it, you can still buy the stuff...and it still works great. Less expensive than napthalene too. I'm with Gern. My all-time favorite is my old Svea 123 with a matching cook kit from REI that was made for the stove to nest inside. However, I have been on some very cold backpacks when it was difficult to keep the stove pressurized enough to keep it cooking. Extreme cases, I admit. I also have an old Optimus stove that uses the same technology but was packaged differently, in its own fold-up 'can'. Nowadays, though, I find it hard to beat my Whisperlite, especially after I figured out that it really CAN use different fuel tanks, especially if you extend the intake hose so it will drink up the last dregs of fuel. The pump pressurization is superior to the Svea (sorry, old Betsy) and the removable tank is also nice. For the money, I'd buy the Whisperlite or something similar. I don't like the butane cannisters because of the solid waste problem. If they were refillable it might be a different matter. So far I have never had a problem with any of my stoves except one (name escapes me now) that had a battery-operated fan and burned sticks and twigs. The problem with that one was that someone stole it. Oh well.

jmenand, I think my wife would agree. She has often expressed regret that marriage wasn't something like a 5-year-renewable contract (usually followed by muttering, "5 years were already too many..." or something to that effect. But she's stuck... you know, a Catholic thing. She sent me one of those email jokes recently: A woman visited a fortune teller, The fortune teller whispered that she had tragic news, The woman's husband was going to die a horrible, violent death. The woman was quiet for a while and then she spoke, She asked the fortune teller, "Tell me, I have to know...will I be acquitted?" A few years ago, I fainted while on a business trip. I called her from a hospital: her first words, "...so are you going to die or what?" Where did it all go I wonder? So I guess I struck out with my real-life situation back on page 3. More fun to bat conjectures back and forth.

My grandmother had 4 husbands, just not at the same time. They all died young. Have to wonder what those last guys were thinking. But the situation that Brent asks about exists plenty of times, except that only one of the multiple guys or other women attain the legal status of marriage. I suspect this is still true for the famous Mormon polygamists. The state legally only recognizes one marriage. Effectively the same as having multiple willing mistresses. Charles Kuralt comes to mind as well. Still waiting for responses.

Real-life situation: One ASM recently confided to another ASM that the first ASM is gay and has known this since puberty. Also that another ASM is gay as well but just hasn't 'come out'. There is absolutely no way that the gay ASMs will be a threat to any of the boys, thus the only possible objection will be religious-based. I'm interested in reading responses to this situation.

I hope my tongue-in-cheek characterizations didn't burn anyone too badly. I will say that I, too, was raised to be one of 'God's frozen chosen'. Perhaps that's why I'm a little hard on them..but my church was second-echelon Presbyterian. We had presidents of well-drilling companies, steel fabrication plants, plumbing companies. The First Presbyterian Church in the city had bank presidents, the president and the CEO of the power company, the phone company...you get the idea. Could have been coincidence, I suppose, except that numerous of my friends have noticed similar things at their towns around the country. You're right, it couldn't be true everywhere. Just havin' fun.

Don't worry Acco40, I'll be there to defend you. Just as scouting is not responsible for the bad in persons, it perhaps should not be credited with all that is good. I doubt that we can measure precisely the benefit that scouting has on the boys. We just 'know' that there is benefit, sometimes because they tell us so in so many ways - and perhaps if not for scouting...we just can't ever know for sure. I just wish scouting really WAS for everyone.

Hi Gern, I dated a Lutheran (female) for a while until her minister told her she was going to hell. That scared me a little...you know - the guilt and association thing...but not until I had attended quite a few sermons and homecoming meals, etc. It was nice though (except for that hell part). Fun girl though. I would have included Jews but there are almost as many kinds of Jews as there are flavors of Protestantism. Ashkenazy Jews, Hassidic Jews, Conservative Jews, Reformed Jews, Basic Jews, Acidic Jews, Hermetic Jews...no telling how many. OK, some of those are fictitious but they sounded good. Anyway, I didn't know enough to try to characterize them...so I didn't. Trevorum, Beer...did you mention beer? I'd like to join the discussion... I'd even try to get in touch with my feminine side if it would help...I keep getting that suggestion from women for some reason...I just wish I knew what it meant.

My fractured classification (apologies in advance ): Baptists: no alcohol, no dancing, no cards or gambling, tend to work for Presbyterians, seem to hate Unitarians, fear of humor, special pre-occupation with hell. Pentecostals: no alcohol, no dancing outside of church, no gambling, great language skills, love of reptiles and loud music, never heard of Unitarians Methodists: dancing and alcohol OK in moderation, have sense of humor, equivocal on gambling, don't care about Unitarians Presbyterians: dour, dark, bank presidents, fatalistic, no sense of humor whatsoever, drink in private, like to employ Baptists (go figure) Episcopalians: eat fish and chicken (oops, that's 'pisco-pollons'), alcohol in church, gambling in church, dancing, great sense of humor, (hey, where do I sign up?) Unitarian Universalists: like to argue and question everything, perpetual identity crisis, likely to be scientists or academics, alcohol and dancing anywhere and anytime, seem to like everyone, great sense of humor Catholics: mysterious, incantations, holy smoke, holy water, also like alcohol and bingo, pageantry, The Pope, humor understandable only to other Catholics, until recently considered the Earth as the center of the universe Moslems: (hope this doesn't put me on a hit list) seem to pray a lot, no alcohol, dominated by men, poorly understood by other religions, sense of humor, great food. Lutherans: they like the upper midwest, enjoy alcohol at home and at family bars, well-adapted to cold weather, still hung up on the Catholic church, seem to like to stand up and sit down a lot in church services. Not much humor (that could be a midwest thing), boring food. Buddhists: Introspective, seeking inner enlightenment, prayer fires, chants, seem to like baldness, alcohol OK. Great sense of humor, great tea. Hinduism: reincarnation, polytheism (too many to mention), sacred cows, chants, mysterious, peaceful, wonderfully interesting food.

I have mixed feelings. Unless there is some other dynamic that would make the situation more volatile, and I don't read this from what you wrote about the police officers, I think it doesn't matter very much where the message comes from as long as he gets it and as long as he takes it to heart without getting bent out of shape. My wife constantly berates me about sticking my foot in my mouth (but then, she berates me just about all the time anyway). I guess we all need reminders sometimes and it is better to get those friendly reminders than to make a serious mistake.

ljnrsu, There are other such sad examples as well. However, I think the point of the thread (correct me if I'm wrong here) is that the qualities that individuals have that help them achieve such things as eagle scout...are positive qualities. And attaining eagle is an indication that they exist. However, from the view of this eagle, there is nothing about the above that necessarily indicates that undesirable qualities may not also coexist, as indeed they do in certain individuals (as you note in your message). Therefore, again in this eagle's view, everyone including eagle scouts, should be viewed as individuals and judged as individuals. What we think and do are the product of many things but they are thought and done by us individually. And we take individual responsibility for them (at least I do). The Whitmans and other criminals who happen to have been scouts, even eagle scouts, are just people like everyone else...except they have expressed qualities that we judge unacceptable or worse. It doesn't reflect badly on other eagle scouts or on BSA as long as these individuals are treated as individuals and not a class of people. I have tried to express this to boys attaining eagle in this unit. That they have attained this rank themselves, regardless of assistance or guidance from others. It is their achievement. And theirs to dishonor if that is what the future holds. They were individually responsible for the achievement and they deserve the personal recognition. And if they muck things up in the future, they will similarly be individually responsible and deserve similar personal recognition. It cuts both ways and it is fair. Edited part: oops, subject/verb agreement, sorry(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Fuzzy, the Burma Shave mention really did it for me, thanks. One more thing, if the Eagle Scout (the first impeccably honest President in a long time) hadn't pardoned the criminal, he might have won his next election. Lesson learned...the next guy should open the records, stand back, and let the heads roll after this debacle.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

One more thing (that's 'more', not 'Moore', tee hee): Jimmy Carter was a scouter. Before he was President, among other things he served as a scoutmaster making him a full member of BSA at that time. Our current POTUS was a cub scout but that was presumably before he spent the next few decades drunk. Hope scouting values didn't contribute to that. LBJ was an active leader, serving on his council's exploring committee. JFK had been a scout in his youth. Eisenhour was a member of the national executive board. When Franklin D. Roosevelt died, he had a record of 24 years of service in scouting. Among other things he had been president of the Greater New York Councils. After he left the presidency (BSA hadn't started during his presidency), Teddy Roosevelt was a committeeman for troop 39, Oyster Bay, NY.

Right on, Beaver! When I survey the families and leaders in our unit, the vast majority of those who actually take the time to SERVE the unit are 'bleeding heart liberal' types, most of whom hold their noses regarding BSA policy on certain issues and serve anyway. Regarding one of the most esteemed eagles: http://www.thebiographychannel.co.uk/biography_story/802:589/1/Michael_Moore.htm Another local boy makes good, perhaps helped by values he learned in scouting.

When I was a child, being indoctrinated into the Presbyterian flavor, the bible stories were even better than 'The Lone Ranger'. No where in the media could I hear a story about how the heroine drove a tent peg through a guy's head, or how a supernatural being convinces a father to kill his own son just to test him, or how the supernatural being causes the earth to swallow up infidels, or how the SB kills off a slew of first born children for the sins of the fathers, or how the little girl's dance elicited a pledge to the king's wife to cut a prophet's head off and have it delivered on a platter, or, or.... Wow! That stuff was what we really wanted: sex, violence, betrayal, debauchery, death, destruction. Didn't get much better...until Star Wars came along. But like I've said before, the myths are all such great fun. BTW, took me a while to come to terms with the logical conundrums of predestination - just another twist to the time travel paradox. Still fun.

SR540beaver, I think I can partially answer why to your question, "If religion doesn't play a part in her life, why does she see a need to get her children religious training? To what end? Is it kind of like teaching your kid how to do the waltz on the outside chance that he might be invited to a state dinner and ball someday?" I don't want to ignore the rest of your questions but the above just about sums it up. There are several answers for why even an atheist might choose to give their child some RE. Here are the ones I can think of offhand: 1) Diversity - so the child will appreciate the fact that there are different faiths and will understand some of the basic beliefs. 2) Diversity again - so the child will have a broad knowledge of different faiths and they will be better able to make a decision on what THEY choose to believe (or not). 3) Understanding - so that when the children from the church down the street tell them they're going to hell...at least they'll understand why those children think this. 4) Understanding - so that when they hear their faith (or lack thereof) compared unfavorably (such as "walking with Satan", etc.) they'll again understand the basis for such comparisons. 5) Understanding and diversity - so they will be conversant with various faiths, Judaism, Islam, and Christianity in particular in this country, so that they will feel comfortable if confronted with situations that are based in those faiths. They will be able to discuss the faiths intelligently. 6) To give them an better advantage in discussions on the scouter.com forums. Just a few quick thoughts. There are probably some others.

I have to agree, but I think people are basically the same at a very basic level. We all feel similar emotions (love, fear, etc.), we all have the same basic needs, and we all have the capacity to do good or evil, to deceive or to be honest. We definitely do these things in different environments and with different histories and resources, though, and that may partly explain some of the other differences. One of my favorite quotes from Mark Twain is (doing my best to get it right), "You can take a starving dog and feed it and make it prosper...and it will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." So true.

The Blue Ridge general region, close enough. You're a ways away from me though, south and to the east. But I share your love of the river(s). The Edisto is a great trip but must be carefully planned. In the wrong season it is torture and slow water is ALWAYS deceptively dangerous. My favorite time is October, maybe late, after the bugs get knocked back by cool temperatures. On the Chattooga, a great all-round run is to put in at Sandy Ford just above the narrows and take out at Woodall Shoals. This run still has all the best drops (second ledge is a hoot) and all the boys can do it. Careful though, Bull Sluice has changed just a little due to a shift of decapitation rock, it may not be the same as you remember. I still swim it though - sometimes on purpose. If the water's right you can still sneak around Woodall but best to take out just above. I once watched a kayak (thankfully not mine) roll in the hydraulic for over an hour before we could fish it out. If your guys are up for a great hike or backpack, the Foothills Trail is hard to beat and very local to you. And you get to dabble in all the great river gorges as you cross the escarpment. In my old job, I've been all over the world and I tell you this area is tough to beat. But then, I've liked almost everywhere I've ever been. (And I met wonderful, new, exotic people, and didn't kill them) Happy trails...

So which river did you guys do? We did the Nantahala a few weeks ago...nice and cool. My personal favorite is the Chattooga - section 3 down to Woodall Shoals. But the Nolichuky, lower part of the French Broad (yep, that really is a river), and Ocoee are fun. Actually the upper Chattahoochee is kind of fun. For big water, try the New River up in WV. Probably need an outfitter for that one though. I nearly forgot the Green River, also nice and close to you. Have your guys done the trip on the Edisto? This is not the time of year for it but it's a really great 50-miler.

I just searched the forums and was surprised to see how few threads were on the topic of the Iraq debacle. This one was the most recent I could find so after thinking about a really campy movie a long time ago ("Reanimator"), I decided to reanimate this thread rather than create a new one. Suggested new title: "Can't Buy Me Love" http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/16/washington/16policy.html?th&emc=th&oref=slogin There are some nice nuggets in this article. Here's one: "More generally, the participants said, the president expressed frustration that Iraqis had not come to appreciate the sacrifices the United States had made in Iraq, and was puzzled as to how a recent anti-American rally in support of Hezbollah in Baghdad could draw such a large crowd. 'I do think he was frustrated about why 10,000 Shiites would go into the streets and demonstrate against the United States,' said another person who attended." Well, Duuuhhhh!

CalicoPenn, LOL. As for my scores: 1. Secular Humanism (100%) 2. Unitarian Universalism (98%) 3. Liberal Quakers (90%) 4. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (86%) 5. Nontheist (70%) 6. Neo-Pagan (70%) 7. Theravada Buddhism (67%) 8. New Age (57%) 9. Bah' Faith (54%) 10. Reform Judaism (50%) 11. Taoism (50%) 12. Orthodox Quaker (48%) 13. Mahayana Buddhism (47%) 14. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (43%) 15. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (43%) 16. New Thought (39%) 17. Scientology (35%) 18. Jainism (35%) 19. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (34%) 20. Sikhism (33%) 21. Jehovah's Witness (31%) 22. Seventh Day Adventist (23%) 23. Islam (22%) 24. Orthodox Judaism (22%) 25. Hinduism (21%) 26. Eastern Orthodox (18%) 27. Roman Catholic (18%) Well, Duuhhhh!

I nearly fell out of my chair when I read this on my class reuinion web site. I didn't write it but I wish I had...my first time was almost identical but at a different drive-in. I edited it a little to remove some personal stuff that didn't add to the story. Anyway, thought I'd share it and see if anyone had anything to add. My first time was at the South 29 Drive-In........ Does anybody ever remember what movie was playing? I didn't think so. Something in the back of my mind wants to say Peyton Place. I do remember we were both sixteen and it was a cold winter night during the Christmas holidays. It was a long walk to the concession stand for the popcorn and cokes. To say I was nervous was an understatement. West side guys learn or try to learn from the older guys, sometimes just listening and never asking any questions. Not cool to ask questions. Well, everything was going as planned. I was warned about how totally embarrassing it could be and even humiliating to her. I kept reminding myself of that. The windows on all the cars around us were fogged up just like ours which made us feel better. I don't know if it was all the apprehension or the excitement that took my mind somewhere else. I do know that my surging hormones were exceeded only by a sudden movement and yes, I had driven off with the speaker still attached to the car, for my first time. The second time was at the Queen Drive-In.

SR540Beaver, I am certain that all the snake-handlers (religion-wise at least) I have met were Pentecostals, not Baptists. Please tell me that the Baptists don't really have these as well...too much...too much! No one I know has died yet but the ones who have ought to be nominated for the Darwin award. However, as the misfortune usually occurs after they've reproduced, those defective genes are already out there. Oh well.

This is good news, although I always liked the current official pants as well. I'll buy a couple pair of the new ones. The problem for me is always getting the inseam length right and it sounds like these are going to do the trick. I try to avoid the spark hole problem by reserving a couple of pair of Holy pants, repeatedly offered to the fire gods as sacrificial burnt offerings. They just get Holier and Holier. Gern, I'm with you on the sock thing. But the sock color scheme does sort of remind me of a favorite local brand of rum (Red Cap), good stuff, too. OK, boasting rights now...I write this while sitting this morning on the veranda of an estate overlooking the Caribbean high up on a mountainside in Dominica. Planning trip...someone has to do it. Life is good.

OK, OK, break it up. For some reason, I was under the impression that Medicare and Medicaid funds went to the patients to defray their healthcare bills. Or am I wrong about this? Do the hospitals collect these funds even if no such patients use the hospitals' services?