packsaddle

When I think about the hand-wringing, the lamentations, the bed-wetting over the numbers, I wonder....why? From the individual boy's perspective, the thing that really matters is his unit and the people involved in it. So what if every council in other states go belly up? I guess I don't buy into religious cults very well but as long as this unit is doing well, all that other stuff is just background noise.

Wow, it takes me back to the '60s. Whatever happened to 'boy led'? Sounds to me like they are taking a true leadership role and exercising legal 'civil disobedience'. Think of this as a wonderful opportunity for them to learn a whole bunch of civics lessons first hand. AND they might just make their point...think of that! If the guys in this troop took action like that, I'd back them up for their courage and initiative. Focusing on who gets the loot or whether the product is any good just puts everything in the hands of those who set this situation up in the first place. We raise plenty of funding by doing a little work and selling a product that: 1) is offered at a reasonable price 2) is better than anything else on the market by a long shot. And because we do it on our own initiative, we don't have to worry about the council taking a cut (that bunch of percentage parasites!). The popcorn thing is little more than a distraction to us. And thank goodness...I HATE popcorn. OK, I plead guilty to engaging in hate ...directed at a 'food' item.

During school (including lunch): fire drill - OK; reminder of sports tryouts - OK; school band performance - OK; Mrs. Norwood's History Class field trip - OK; Announcement of Health Department innoculations - OK; mandatory assembly to inform them of the Elks Club yard sale - NO; School fall festival - OK; AmWay presentation - NO; Recruiting by Mormon missionaries - NO; Jehovah's Witnesses - NO; Assemblies of Yahweh - NO; Jane's Satanists - NO; Announcement about school glee club - OK; announcement about meeting of school religion club - OK; Announcement about the private discriminatory swim club - NO; Announcement about the school swim team - OK; Good Ole Blues Brothers Boys coming to Bob's Country Bunker - NO; Faculty/student video game tournament - Priceless. Seems simple enough.

Gern, the first negative that comes to my mind if your scenario became reality...is that some would then have more time to devote to the subjugation of women and the discrimination against various minorities.

Zahnada, from my experience with this unit, I think you are correct. The only recruiting we do is to invite Webelos to join a few events and meetings. Word-of-mouth is almost the only way people know this unit and we are growing very quickly. The parents almost always have the final word. And their parents definitely yank 'em out if they don't like something.

I believe that neither I nor OGE object to recruiting. What I object to is mandatory interruption of classes during the school day for recruiting by private, non-school-related organizations. Those organizations are welcome to recruit. Just do it when it isn't a mandatory interruption of academics. Now (donning my free-market hat) if a majority of the people in a school district wish to hire professionals who institute such interruptions, and the people support those policies, I suppose that the marketplace of the future will eventually take the appropriate selective action regarding those young persons - and the market forces will have worked the way they should. (Ed)ited part: Ed, do you believe that mandatory interruptions of the mid-day meal have no effect on acacemics? I suppose we need to know the specifics on how they did this.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

You're kidding aren't you? Are you telling me that Illinois has a university? I guess I'm trying to play the role of someone who used to post here very often, he was nicknamed after a type of quail. Anyway, what you suggest for unit-to-unit discretion regarding rank requirements may have the merit of allowing infinite 'tweaking' to accommodate local needs. It also has the weakness of supporting no actual standard for the BSA program. To carry the local option idea to its extreme, BSA should merely be a franchise operation that loosely requires a uniform (with local options allowed), a set of loose guidelines for the program (not to mention G2SS, etc.), and suggested ranks that could be added to or ignored locally. AND, by unit, the membership requirements can also be decided locally thus eliminating all the fuss over gays and atheists. While I think this is an intriguing possibility, I suspect that most scouters (at least reading these forums) would lean toward the other end and expect (require?) rather rigid standards and regulations. Do you see my point? Edited part: Aw heck, let's have some fun. Think of the current BSA structure as the former Soviet Union with its rigid authoritarian rule, no open dissent, strict control on trademark, etc. And think of local option in terms of the Confederacy, a loosely organized group of independent states, or perhaps the Balkan region where every little population decided to create a sovereign state, OR perhaps the Protestant churches where (it seems) groups are splitting off ad libitum. Structure and order on one hand, chaos on the other? Have a nice day. Such fun.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Actually she was pitted against the school board, not BSA. The title of the suit was "Powell v. Portland Public Schools". I think in-school time should be jealously reserved for academics, something that is sorely needed in this country. No outside group should make presentations during the school day, including BSA. If BSA wants to arrange a meeting after hours for recruiting, that is OK as long as other groups have equal access. Or they can rent billboards, or do some skywriting, or ads in the paper, just like any other organization, no problem.

Ed, it seems clear to me as well. Beavah, one source of the consternation that you question could be that different boys might not be held to the same requirements (such as those actually written on the application). However, between councils there evidently is a great deal of variation in the process - as shown in the reponses in this thread. Local option seems to be exercised. Therefore I would mostly be concerned if the process was not consistent, in that case, WITHIN the council. You give one scenario in which the council delegates the authority to a local EBOR. Nevertheless, your scenario seems to go against the letter from the chief. Did you read it? Don't get me wrong, I'm for local option all the way. If the process is consistent for all units within that council, I suppose that is fair within that council. Let's just make it clear that local option is now acceptable and that councils can make modifications to scouting that optimize the program for their council. However, if there is unit-to-unit variability, the requirements may not be applied to all the boys in the same manner. EBORs at the unit level would seem to be more susceptible to that and that, to me, would be a problem. The simplest way to avoid it is for everyone, including the council, to adhere to the rather simple and clear requirements stated on the application, and emphasized by the chief. If the requirements are set at the national level, then there should be nationwide consistency in their application. There clearly isn't. But, like I say, if local option is the way to go, someone needs to make that clear so that we (locally) can start to make some changes.

I have told plenty of boys in this situation that there is nothing wrong or dishonorable with leaving scouting at the rank of Life. I think the celebration mentioned above is appropriate if the boy did set that good example.

Beavah, Indeed that is up to the council's discretion if they so choose. oldsm, I am curious. Where do you find the authority for the EBOR to effectively duplicate the council's responsibility? The custom must be based, sometime in the past, on some kind of authority for that practice. I would like to read it.

So...BSA won this one, right? Or did they?

Hunt, I think I agree with your concern. It would be hard to justify MANDATORY attendance for anything that wasn't directly related to school. In this case her best avenue might have been to the school board. Schools around here don't even have mandatory attendance for many school-related activities, much less the non-school-related ones. I wouldn't want my children to be forced to attend anything that was not school-related. Voluntary attendance would be fine. I guess it is just this parent's desire to make those decisions for my children. Am I reading something into the article...did the schools decide anyway to prohibit the recruiting? If so, the mother probably wasn't too concerned about the court decision. Edited Part: I just learned that this mandatory recruiting meeting was done during school hours. I would definitely oppose it. The court may be correct regarding discrimination but I'd be all over the school board to have extracurricular activities actually be extracurricular. From what I read this is going to happen. Found it..FYI, here's the decision: http://www.publications.ojd.state.or.us/S52657.htm (This message has been edited by packsaddle)

I wonder what would have happened if she had attempted to have her son join....

As I read the application, the requirement to list persons willing to act as references does not translate into a requirement for letters up front. "REQUIREMENT 2. Demonstrate that you live by the principles of the Scout Oath and Law in your daily life. List the names of individuals who know you personally and would be willing to provide a recommendation on your behalf." I believe it is up to the recipient of the completed application (the council) to request the letters if such are requested. So far, in all the eagles I've seen, no letter has been requested. In those cases where a letter was produced up front (by misunderstanding), the council told us not to send it. I emphasize this by quoting the letter from the chief scout executive, "After completing your project and all the other requirements for the rank of Eagle Scout, complete the following steps: 1. Review the Eagle Scout Rank Application. Note that you will need to list references of people who will speak on your behalf. You will also need to prepare a statement about yourself." You can read this yourself: http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/eagleproject/chief.html Note the "...will speak..." part. He goes on later in the letter to say that the persons listed will be contacted, AFTER the application materials have been submitted. No mention of letters, only contact. So far, no reference I have known of has ever been contacted. That said, the person to be listed as a religious leader is left to the choice of the applicant (the boy) and not subject to judgment by the board of review. He may have a question about what latitude he has for consideration of potential references but once he is informed, it is up to him. All the board needs to do is make sure such reference is listed. The council can follow up if they want.

OK, the boys will indeed make some poor choices along the way, in spite of knowledge to the contrary. I sure did and fortunately there were some very tolerant and understanding adults around that allowed me to straighten up and fly right. A poor choice or decision doesn't necessarily mean they don't know the right thing to do, they just yield to temptation or poor judgement once in a while. For example, they know not to steal but if I leave a bag of candy untended at a meeting, I guarantee it will be raided before the meeting is over. At some level, conscience not withstanding, they are very similar to raccoons. Nevertheless, they know it is wrong and I think possession of conscience is the essential ingredient from which we craft ethical decision-making. Occasionally, conscience seems to be absent but not often. I try to detect this in the boys the same way I detected it in my children. I occasionally confront them individually with situations that they might rationalize as an ethical gray area. Before they decide, I explain the choice in a way that removes the equivocation and clarifies the situation. When they make the right decision (almost every time) I know for certain they have the right ingredients. For that rare occasion when one of them doesn't, I know a lot more work is ahead.

ManassasEagle, Hey man, I must have blocked that out of my memory but you're right about that. Quite a trudge up that hill. We suit up in coveralls at the entrance for the cave and then, in the summer at least, we exit and head straight for the river for a dip. Really a lot of fun. One trip we canoed the Big Reed Island Creek (I think it runs into the New River at the upper end of Claytor Lake) and the next day canoed that section of the New River that goes through Radford Arsenal. We were told that legally we could do it as long as we stayed on the water, but big trouble if we set foot on shore in the Arsenal. So we stayed on the water, armed guards following us on shore to make sure. They looked mean. But that was fun too. Edited Part: gwd-scouter, I would vote for the trip at Racoon Mountain, just the other side of Chattanooga. You don't have to have any special training and they supply all the gear. It really is great fun! Here's the url: http://www.raccoonmountain.com/html/wild_cave.html(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

I agree with Brent's post. The boys in this unit find the overnight trip in Raccoon Cavern quite enough of a challenge...not to mention some of our out-of-shape leaders. I love squeezing through the 'birth canal' and later the '49-cent squeeze', etc., and exiting through the 'mail slot' right as the grandmas are walking past on the regular tour. The looks we get are just fiiiine. Sleeping in the mud is one of our rights of passage. Great fun! If you want something vertical, you can also consider the New River Cave near Blacksburg, VA right off the shore of the New River at the Radford Arsenal. But it is not guided and you will need to pay careful attention to the G2SS. There are some wonderful crawls and leaps of faith. At the apparent end there is a beautiful waterfall coming out of the ceiling. Ropes are required beyond that. Be careful.

Well, I'm a southerner and I dearly love cornbread. If you use too much baking powder, it gets a soapy taste. I concur regarding deleting the sugar, that makes more of a corn 'cake'. What I do like is to add creamed corn and chopped jalapeno peppers. Makes a nice moist, spicy bread that demands another bite, and another.

Eamonn, I saw similar instances while I was working for the military-industrialist complex. But your story has one huge difference...after reading it I have an incredible desire for a huge plate of crab legs. Mmmmmm. Fuzzy, I don't buy the comparison. The car bombers (and anyone else who rationalizes hurting innocent people) are suffering from self-deceptions if they think they are serving some higher power. I think fear and self-hatred are the roots of this behavior but I am not an expert on the matter. It simply is the only way I can explain their irrational behavior in my mind. Mother Theresa, OTOH, may or may not be engaged in a self-deception but regardless, her actions exemplify what we want everyone to be like. There was a better example a couple of thousand years ago who just wanted everyone to be nice to each other. So we killed him. Have a nice day

Brent, You're right, that comment was a bit snide. I apologize. I tend to agree with your assessment about the early years, the 'dumbing down' seems to occur more at the middle school ages. However kindergarten was merely a rumor for me and the families around me when I was growing up. But I learned how to read well, well before first grade, and did the math as well, well above grade level all the way through elementary. I think the difference was that my parents stressed this as important and helped along the way. We were rural, working class, and didn't have much in the way of luxury except a luxuriant appreciation for education. My buddies, with whom I became blood brothers in many different ways, didn't have the same experience. I may be the only person in my graduating class to attain an advanced degree, less than ten percent went on to any kind of college. A huge number dropped out and didn't finish at all. Sadly, at that time, few people seemed to care, it was so 'normal'. Today, even with the progress we've made, after all this time it hurts when I still hear persons in various parts of the South say, "Thank God for Mississippi!" You may be right about the progress and I tend to agree, but we still have a long way to go. And yes, we get the boys in scouting right at middle school. What a great opportunity to show them a better way. I hope it's working. (This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Ed, I agree. Ethics is a concept that is fundamentally about 'fairness'. We understand the many ways this translates to our actions and lives. But because you and I understand this in our own minds doesn't necessarily automatically communicate to someone else (the boys, for example). The found money is a good example. We know this is the right thing to do because we know someone who is the rightful owner will be harmed if we don't return it. It is good for us to return it because it will keep them from being harmed AND it is the only affirmation of our assumption and hope that should we lose the money, it will be returned to us. We understand that the only way we can be part of a community that really works is to make it work by thinking about the other guy. The golden rule. The self-centered notion of 'finders keepers' (so often overheard in the boys) implies several things. It implies that we are not concerned with the other guy (or the community) and that we are more important than they are. It also implies that we are prepared to 'go it alone' in virtually every aspect of life, and this might even include marriage, kids, and family. But I think the boys actually do know the right thing to do. I think that most of them have good consciences. They sometimes just need for us to set that example or give them a nudge to go ahead and do that right thing. And then a pat on the back in recognition. Sometimes is good for us as well. When we moved into our new home a couple of years ago, one day I was missing my organizer and checkbook. A couple of days later, one of my new neighbors down the street returned it, late he said, because it took some effort to track me down using the old address in it. It had blown off the back of my car where I had carelessly left it one morning and they found it on the side of the road. I've done the same for other people. But I knew that we had moved to a community, not just a bunch of houses near each other. I'd like to think it is the same everywhere else.

Yellow Hammer, I know what you mean and I tend to agree. I don't have any statistics on how many of those foreign students stay here but I'm sure many, if not most, of them do. That is good for us but still troubling when I wonder why our own don't do as well. I wonder sometimes if our attempts to provide every advantage for our children just allows them to appreciate things less. Regarding K-12, my feeling is that through 4th grade, our efforts to dumb them down just hasn't taken hold yet and their innate desire to absorb everything sustains them. After that, I wish I could say the problem was something simple...you know, like 'rap music' or something. But there's more to it, I suspect, perhaps a broad cultural pattern. Still, as you say, some of them are 'late bloomers' (like I was) and just don't 'get it' until they get some real-world dope slaps. I think we have just as much innate ability as anyone else on this planet. The motivation seems to be different.

Its Trail Day, your attack was worse than mine but they are the same bad actors. For some reason, it has now stopped for me, no more attacks. Maybe they are just moving around users probing for an open door.

I can't figure out how to get this message to the moderators or to Scouter Terry, but although my virus protection is up-to-date and working, every time I access the forums I am attacked by trojan horses. My virus software (the latest McAfee Viruscan stuff) is catching and deleting these things but I thought someone should be made aware of it. Thanks.