packsaddle

"Both sides are looking pretty disgusting right now." Friends, I think there is a reason for this. What we have installed in government, our representatives, is nothing more than a poor reflection on.....US. We are, as a people, more than almost any other nation, responsible for our own political fate, our economic fate, our foreign policy fate, our domestic fate. Whether Dem or Rep, WE elected them. For the current crop of lying criminals, we have had ample time to identify them for what they are and we have repeatedly put them back. Now, with regard to the economy, the war in Iraq, and the Bill of Rights, WE have driven the car over the cliff. Our options are rather limited. Therefore, I suggest to everyone that we keep the bastards who are there now, there. That way, at least, it will remain abundantly clear who was driving when we found our fate. The Dems have come up with no plan of action any more realistic than the failed plan that WE bought from the Reps. Stay the course. What does it matter who is at the wheel when we experience that sudden stop?

Hunt, OK, ok, stick to the topic...if you insist. I am always quick to acknowledge that I am (most of the time) in a minority opinion on these matters. However, your characterization, "I would also suggest that before you tell the bigots that their time is up, you'd better count the votes." goes farther than I would like. I really do think that many of those in opposition to my views are honestly and sincerely engaged in a meaningful dialogue. At the same time I know that some of the individuals in the opposition qualify as bigots. I just wouldn't characterize the entire majority that way. Have I mentioned before that I dislike labels?

Brent, I need to break it to you gently, fella...I know gay people who feel the same way you do about the stars and bars. And your idea is a wonderful one. As a matter of fact, my daughter works for a local graphics shop and guess what? New design on the way! Thanks. P.S. I have my hand cupped to my ear, listening for the scream...

Brent, I propose that we get the KKK to adopt the rainbow and try to convince the gay rights people to start flying the stars and bars. Nah, that one doesn't even compute in my mind! But I do contrast the origins of one with the other, a wonderful story about a miracle vs. a political movement founded on racial oppression. Before you go off on me, I know I'm in a minority opinion. Dan, I blame myself. I shouldn't have mentioned the twin studies but your analysis is correct. It isn't actual direct experimental evidence, but it does establish a reasonable hypothesis of the presence of a (presently not-indentified) genetic component. I note also that although some diseases may have similar obscure genetic influences, in no way do I consider homosexuality to be a disease. I have many gay acquaintances and friends and all of them are in perfect health, both physically and mentally. I value them just the way I do other people, for the creativity and vitality they give to me, my family, and the community. I hope that someday everyone (including BSA) will view them and treat them the same as any other good citizens. Think I'll stick with the rainbow for now.

Hey, I have a rainbow banner on a pole on the front of my house. I thought the rainbow was God's sign for the new covenant after the flood. Or am I wrong? I guess, regarding genetics and homosexuality, the twin studies have escaped the critical scrutiny of respondents to this thread. Whew! It is painful to read what I am reading in these posts regarding genetics and to realize that some of you have medical training. Actually it is astounding! And considering the number of medical procedures I have survived, I am feeling a bit lucky. I am not a geneticist, my specialization is in another field of biology. But as a scientist, I am quick to recognize my limitations in a particular inquiry and to seek the assistance of other specialists (a geneticist, for example) if my research requires it. I am willing to continue to read this stuff and in no way do I suggest that the respondents should hold back. However, although my knowledge is limited, I suggest that UNLESS you actually understand things such as homeobox genes or HOX clusters and how they work, better yet, have an understanding of evo devo, THEN you are not even qualified for status as a dilettante regarding genetics or developmental biology. I suggest that we can continue these discussions but we should at least recognize that the actual currency of the discussion is ignorance rather than enlightenment. If I have insulted anyone, I assure you that I am not trying to demonstrate any kind of superiority other than that of realistically knowing my own limits. As a cautionary note, I refer to other studies that have indicated that the greatest confidence is often found among those who are least knowledgeable of their own (severe) limitations. That said, I am confident that the field of genetics will hardly be advanced here. Whew, now I feel better. Thanks. Carry on.

Brent, believe it or not I hope you're right. I hope the Republican party maintains its hold on every branch of the government. But you have to admit, right now that doesn't appear to be a likely prospect.

I'll begin by stating something on which 'W' and I agree. You can all climb back into your chairs now. In his 'No Child Left Behind' legislation, one of the goals was for every teacher eventually to have a degree in the SUBJECT that was taught, and also the teaching credentials. This, in my mind, is a wonderful goal that spells the end of history majors teaching math and being called, "coach". It is one of the goals that seems to have been, well, 'left behind'. I mention my agreement on this point because it goes to the comment by Gonzo1, who I think is correct in some ways but not all. The issue here crosses several levels. At one level, it affects a child and the child's family. At the other extreme, it is an issue for the district, possibly the state, regarding curriculum. At the level of the family, I agree with Gonzo1. Every concerned parent SHOULD exercise their 1st amendment right and become more involved in the education of their child. And at the level of curriculum, all families should be engaged by taking the time to understand what a curriculum is, how it is created, what limitations and requirements are imposed on it, and how it is implemented. And if they have concerns, make those known at that level as well. I have never met an educator who, if approached objectively, did NOT welcome this parent's input and interest in classroom and curricular matters. However, in some subject material, including some mentioned by Gonzo1 such as math and science, the educator who has a degree in the subject material may actually be better prepared to judge curricular needs than parents. In those cases, parents must be willing to honestly admit their limitations and be willing to defer to the educator. This is not always the case. Regarding this particular issue, I don't know why the book was chosen, whether it was an individual choice by the teacher, the school, or the district as part of a curriculum. However, the fact of gay couples is reality that, classroom instruction notwithstanding, the child will learn about no matter what. Some of their classmates may well have gay parents. They need to understand this fact and be able to live in this society. IF the parent has not, or will not, provide this information and understanding, and IF the information and understanding is not allowed to be acquired somehow in a deliberate and controlled classroom environment, THEN this information (perhaps disinformation and prejudice) WILL be acquired on the street. The latter option seems to be the preferred way for many families. It is an inescapable problem.

Gern, They sleep easily because they have honed deception into a way of life and are comfortable with nothing else. You wonder how they do it because you don't understand the comfort and arrogant certainty of self-deception...because you don't practice it.

Marginally related to this thread...a long time back I noted that one of my distant neighbors sometimes flies the Confederate flag on the same pole as and ABOVE the American flag. Now I have noticed he has changed things a bit. He is flying the Confederate flag, and a large swastika flag of some sort. The American flag is no longer there. I'll get a photo sometime for my collection.

Gary Hart was caught with Donna Rice, a 29-year old model, in an extramarital affair. During his political campaign. All over the newspapers and television. Career ended. I'd like to see what would happen if THIS standard was applied evenly across Washington, DC. Ross Perot would finally get his desired outcome, the barn would be swept out. But is the Hart scandal comparable? Not to me, the 'underage' part makes a big difference. Let the heads roll.

Dan, I suppose it's possible for UUs to reject but I can't imagine it. I'd certainly support you for the position where we are and we don't have a single UU in the unit.

Dan, I suppose it's possible for UUs to reject but I can't imagine it. I'd certainly support you for the position where we are and we don't have a single UU in the unit.

Dan, you're welcome in our unit any time. I guess I am missing something regarding the 'big tent' concept. As I used to remind Rooster7 back before he fell on his sword, there is no person nor any group of persons that can truly know what is in someone's mind. If someone signs the application (no matter what flavor of faith they have), then that should be the end of the inquisition. Dan, I have sometimes wondered how you have been viewed by other scouters. Of the members of BSA that understand your faith, do you think a majority of them view Pagans negatively?

From patriotism (flag retirement) to sports (hockey). Interesting. Anyway, I'm a little sympathetic to Gonzo1's message regarding the cubs. However, this is a discretionary thing for leaders and programs and if someone has a way to do this in a meaningful, educational way, I think cubs can handle it. As Gonzo1 says, though, most won't 'get' it, nor will their parents...and for them it is a meaningless gesture. I am not sure that the problem is really that widespread. Around here the flags either last a lot longer or else we just let them wear a lot more before they're retired. Either way, I've only seen a retirement ceremony at a campfire every 3rd or so camporee. When I was CM we only had a pack campfire twice a year anyway and then the cubs were, well, being cubs. Ceremonies were insufficiently controlled or organized for flag retirements. Maybe I should have tightened up on them a little more.... Nah!

We've taken numerous 1000+ mile trips. Good advice has been given. If you're coming from the midwest, you might also consider stopping at Cumberland Falls State Park or Breaks Interstate Park on the way, depending on your route. In NC, after you leave the mountains, the piedmont is pure drudgery so enjoy yourself while you can. NC is a long drive and much of it is very boring and somewhat depressing, kind of like all of Mississippi as well as much of SC, GA, AL, LA and TX. I'd vote for someplace that has a swimming pool and CFSP is perfect for that. But it is a really long way from Washington, NC. Perhaps one of the NC state parks in the mountains and, dare I mention it, there is always the Great Smoky Mountains National Park. It's a nice place as well, and only a little shy of 8 hours away from the outer banks. We always take the church bus or else I have rented a large van (depending on how many are going). I estimate a total budget for the trip, set it up in a spread sheet, calculate the 'break-even' point based on the number of boys going, and set an estimated total cost. Then we fund-raise to try to make it a small number. The mileage/fuel is a fixed cost in the budget. For those really long trips, I always try not to involve private vehicles. That way if there is a breakdown, the rental company can usually handle the problem locally. A private vehicle can be a huge burden under the wrong circumstances, not to mention the wear and tear from these trips. I've rented vans from the local Ford dealership and their rates were very competitive with unlimited mileage. And man, did we ever pile on the miles. But they were always nearly new vehicles with Ford dealers almost as often as Walmarts. Gave a little peace of mind for the leaders. Have fun. I'd take the trip to Hatteras if I were you. Better yet, take a little time to see Ocracoke as well.

There is a solution but BSA refuses to try it. If politics is local, as I've often heard, then locally we're doing just fine. Therein lies the solution that has been stated many times in these threads. Decentralize. Allow some local discretion/options on those policies that draw the fire now. Let people decide for themselves locally. That way the LDS/fundamentalist majority can still have their restrictive policies and the rest of us can open things up to our own standards. It would remove the need for the kinds of actions that make some of those negative headlines. But BSA won't do it. They won't do this for the same reason they don't aggressively respond to the headlines - they are locked into a policy that feeds on fear and they are themselves afraid to change. They lack the fortitude to let members decide for themselves. And therefore they get to stand and take it.

DUH! sorry, couldn't resist.

Hey, I'm sorry I missed it. Maybe we need to create a DUH! award for stuff like that.

Eventually, someone will be killed by the police or by an alarmed private citizen who mistakes one of these 'toys' for the real thing. But your mention of 'Capture the Flag' caught my attention. I hope this is not part of a troop event. If so I interpret these things clearly to be a violation of G2SS. Even outside of scouting, I am not certain of their so-called 'safety'. They fire a projectile. They look like the real thing. They are used to commit crimes. As a parent I would not allow my child to possess one. Edited part: typo, sorry(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

This discussion has indeed been useful. Combined with the fact that I just discovered another big cache of GS cookies hidden in a closet, I am now beginning not to like them either. Thanks.

Gern, are you suggesting, perhaps, that Barr bodies are absent? Yes, of course! Those of us who possess the unassailable truth must convert the rest of you who are ignorant, mistaken, and wrong...and then we must kill your leaders. God is on our side, after all. Is one's arrogance directly proportional to the strength of one's beliefs? It seems to work that way, especially with religious faith. I wonder if there is a correlation with ignorance as well. H'mmmm

Still can't make the link. Oh well, I get its essence. But let's focus on what's really important. Sure Ann is all of those things. But take away that warped brain and all its prejudice and hate, close that uncontrollable mouth likely to say anything, and what do you have left? Let's face it...she's hot!

I can't get the link to work. Need to check it.

I've seen it both ways but we don't use foil. The worst problems I've experienced with foil is that it aways develops a hole somewhere and then the gooey stuff leaks through and you have the original cleanup problem, Plus, the foil often loses shreds into the food itself, yech! The problem with dutch ovens is that they barely fit into a backpack and they're kind of heavy.

I hate popcorn, so I can't claim lack of bias here. However, I do recognize a deception in this, it has already been stated. The money is paid for popcorn, but what is being SOLD is scouting. There's something about that 'selling scouting' part that is disquieting, like scouting could be 'sold' out, or down the drain. But the deception belongs to everyone involved. The idea that the prices are reasonable is obviously deceptive, hence this thread. The rationalization that a product can be overpriced because a large portion of the 'profit' goes to fundraising...(why not just take donations directly?) - deception. The idea that we are instilling good American values in the minds of boys: by telling them to take advantage of the good will of the public and neighbors and family (you can avoid feeling guilty by buying at least one item) by using the 'selling scouting' idea to collect more money for a product than it's worth...deception. But after all that rant, the bottom line is: if you don't like the price, don't buy it. If you want to support scouting, make a direct charitable donation. If you want to support your unit, volunteer. Or make an earmarked donation to the CO. I hate popcorn. I used to love it, ate it all the time, and then I was popcorn chair for years and it made my entire house smell bad. I changed. So I don't buy it anymore. I volunteer. And when the guilt-trip thing is used on me during the popcorn sale, neighbor kids taking advantage of my friendship to leverage the sale of overpriced popcorn that I hate, I politely refuse...and then feel guilty about it. Thanks to scouting.