packsaddle

A percentage figure would not have been necessary. Simply saying that, based on intelligence, he wasn't absolutely certain would have been sufficient. It would have given us, the people, an opportunity to take more of the responsibility for the decision. As it was, his lie denied that from us. I think he understood all this. I think that after a lifetime of personal deception he thought he could not take the risk that the country would choose not to go to war if we knew there was doubt about WMD and all the rest. So he avoided that risk using deception. And now he has been shown for what he is. And he's in denial, exactly as I would have expected. BTW, in case it makes any difference, I'm not a Democrat. I understand you play that name-calling game to avoid substance but I forgive you. You must know by now that, as a heretic, my thoughts are not encumbered by ideologies and that I make up my mind without regard to party lines. I feel free to apply criticisms in an equal-opportunity manner. Regarding the Iraqis, no external power came into the 13 colonies to overthrow King George for us. We did it ourselves and I think we appreciate our freedoms more for that fact. Yes, the French helped a lot. But we did the fighting and we built our own system of government. It wasn't manufactured in another country and plopped down in our laps with an occupying force to 'nurture' it along. If the Iraqis weren't motivated enough to take the country for themselves, what makes you think they are going to appreciate our 'gift'? Sometimes such 'gifts' are merely taken for granted (think welfare here) and they may actually lead to contempt for the giver. H'mmmm?

Hey, any time. You're welcome. I just wish it'd have some effect... Brent, I agree with you. If any of those politicians knew there was doubt before they made those statements they are liars in my book. That said, THEY aren't in the oval office and THEY didn't take us to war. Bush did. Bush had the opportunity to make a carefully reasoned decision in any direction he chose. I have no idea why he decided the way he did but he chose to lie and then to take us to war. As for the 19. All I can say is, AFGHANISTAN! BIN LADEN! AL QAIDA! Not Iraq. As a result, we didn't do a complete job in Afghanistan, Bin Laden is still thumbing his nose at us and stirring terrorism and we have set the stage for terrorists to grow in Iraq, BIG TIME. Nevermind pouring our treasury out on the sand, think of the blood. Thousands of our good people are dead and thousands more may die because a choice was made to start a war of choice. Based on a lie. If Bush had merely gotten a BJ and lied about it, I would have shaken my head and rolled my eyes just like I did for Clinton. For the sake of all those who have lost their lives since, I wish he had.

OK, to try to get this thread back on track, I noticed that the page for the original link evidently doesn't work anymore so here is another that sort of, but not quite, tells the same story:

Brent, I agree with your assessment of the Clinton lie. It didn't kill anyone. But Bush lied. He said there was no doubt about WMD. I believed it. I supported Bush's decision as a result. I was wrong. Bush's decision (and my support) was based on intelligence to which I was not allowed access. I accepted his word as truthful. Later we learned that the intelligence on which he based his statement indicated plenty of doubt about WMD. Contrary to what he said. Bush said there was no doubt. He said this while knowing there WAS doubt. He lied. People are dead as a result. You are in denial, irrationally engaging in thinking errors despite evidence to the contrary. Everyone can see this. The longer you cling to this failed approach, the more difficult it will be for you to correct your thinking. I hope you can.

I'm uncomfortable with this 'game' in which objects are thrown at other persons. If the object is a sock filled with rags (spud) or a dodge ball that might be one thing. But hard things like oranges, air potatoes, baseballs, or rocks are troubling to me and I see the risk of either injury or escalation. The idea of picking out one scout for everyone else to attack is also troubling. I see the knife as a totally wrong way to respond (the neighbor with the handgun was way out of line and deserves to get spanked in court). The environment that led to the boy pulling the knife is also suspect in my mind. Time to rethink a few things. BTW, air potatoes (Dioscorea bulbifera) are noxious invasives and if the boys want to actually contribute something to society, they should help by organizing a project to eradicate these plants from areas that the community would like to restore. As the original post stated these objects are hard and actually ARE like small potatoes, up to several inches in diameter. They grow in our area but are smaller than south of here. I would not appreciate having one thrown at my head. If I was hit, I'd be tempted to respond, tempted perhaps in an inappropriate direction, like maybe a bucket of ice cold water at an unexpected time?

Calico, I think the better example of domestic terrorism is any of the three manifestations of the KKK, first during reconstruction, second after WWI, and the most recent culminating with David Duke, etc. All of these originated in my home region, one very close by (Stone Mountain, GA). I have puzzled over why hate seems to arise and flourish in my region. To be sure, it certainly exists elsewhere (Aryan Nation types for example) but I grew up with it all around me. I sometimes wonder if it is a sort of social inheritance from slavery times. I wish I knew. The loose assocation with fundamentalist Christianity also puzzles me. This region is so rich with contradictions - subtle deceptions as soft as our customs and as hard as our prejudices. I have sought explanations for this all my life and still am not satisfied with the answers. The best I can do is that hate seems to grounded on some kind of fear and the fear can, in turn, arise from ignorance. Not the kind of qualities I would like to associate with the South, I'm afraid. But the thoughtless, black-and-white nature of hate Southern Style is perfect for a political and religious environment of blind faith. That part seems clear to me. It might apply elsewhere too.

"...or they aren't telling the truth" On this I agree. If I had a way to detect everyone who is a liar in all branches of government, I cannot predict how many would be found. However, I'm not optimistic that many of our leaders tell the truth even most of the time. Sadly, we elected them. THEY represent us. As someone (Gern, I think) said before, we tend to get the government we deserve.

Brent, I can't disagree about the negativity of the campaigns except to note that if you think this is solely the territory of the Democrats, you lose credibility with anyone who has paid attention to the ads. As for the talking points, well, I heard exactly the same points on at least three different talk shows over the last few days (Boortz high among 'em). Anything more informative available? You can tell us what you REALLY think, no need to continue sugarcoating it. Gonzo1, sorry my friend, it never lasts forever.

Hey Brent, I don't know about the cats but I know if I had that choice, Mr. Snowy would be history. Of course, heh, heh, after a few more days, we'd just have to see, heh, heh. Maybe the cats would take their turn on the dinner plate a little before you, though. SSScout, I agree. Sometimes when I listen to some supporters of torture who profess to be Christian, I have this feeling of deja vu, or hypocrisy Ted Haggard style.

Heh, heh, Brent, you have wuss cats! Put their dish away and then lie very still on the floor for a few days......I'm pretty sure mine are ready to pounce minutes after I go. I don't even let them in the same room if I'm sleeping. Good reason to keep the snake around, really freaks the cats. Gonzo1, stop voting long enough to answer this question: do you think that we should be denied habeas corpus?

Actually, I've never seen Olbermann on the air. I mostly read. So.....how about my question? Any ideas?

I agree SSScout. Trevorum, my daughter home from college, we stopped off at the voter registrar's office last Friday so she could vote early. Picked up a sample ballot. It'll be quick for me! As SSScout implied, use it before we lose it.

I think I agree with Beavah on this. I hope the parents take whatever action is necessary to understand what are the underlying causes of this behavior. Been there, done that.

Everyone who is outraged at torture should stop reading what I am about to write. It is very graphic. Instead take a look at this link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15519404/ OK, For the rest of you, I have a question but first I need to set the stage. I recently attended a class reunion (that's another story, LOL) but one of my old buddies arrived with his personal photo album from Gulf I. He was Special Forces and went into Kuwait before the general invasion. His mission was to work with the Kuwaiti resistance and prepare them to work with the coalition forces. He saw a lot in Kuwait, and all the way through Iraq...you know, burned bodies still in trucks, burned carcasses with comrades' heads in their laps after being blown up and burned, the usual stuff. Some of what he did was to work with the Kuwaitis to capture an Iraqi soldier here and there to 'interrogate' them for info prior to the invasion. He had photos of the captured as they were captured, after his interrogation, and then after the Kuwaitis finished. The captured Iraqis weren't always turned over to the Kuwaitis, rather that fate was used as a threat to extract the info. But they did turn some over to the Kuwaitis partly to serve as examples. Those individuals were 'interrogated' with great prejudice and in the end, as he put it, they were stomped to death. He had photos of those results as well. So my question is about animal behavior. The stomped bodies were just left to decompose. He had photos of the various stages of that as well. As I went through these photos I noticed that stray cats had eaten parts of many of the corpses. They seem to prefer the fingers, noses, ears, cheeks, and lips. So why do they have this preference? My buddy thought it was because those parts are chewier. I'm not so certain. Any ideas? Edited Part: I also noticed this in other conflicts so it seems to be a general behavior by cats. I suppose if I died tonight and no one discovered me, and the cats ran out of cat food, I'd become cat food. Think I'll tease them a little now....maybe let the python loose on the floor, that just sends them into orbit! Great fun.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Twilight Zone time, folks. Gotta love him! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15539945/ The administration seeks to prohibit prisoners in the 'secret' CIA prisons from talking about their interrogations because it would compromise national security. Anyone wondering if they read this correctly? "If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator." --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Dec. 19, 2000 "You know, one of the hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq to the war on terror." --George W. Bush, interview with CBS News' Katie Couric, Sept. 6, 2006

A lot of judgment in these decisions, for sure. The jackhammer thing put me at odds with Bob White a long time ago, I thought they were too risky (at least for the boys in this unit). Power tools run the gamut. I see less risk in the Dremel stuff than in many unpowered hand tools (like ultra-sharp woodcarving tools). I see more risk in a circular saw than in many other power tools, it does depend on the boy, his willingness to learn and respect the power of the tool, the tool itself (some have better safety features), the job, and the supervision. I think it also depends on the level of preparedness in case of that accident. Barry, I see your point about the jackhammer and about fear. This leader's fear is grounded on experience of watching, over the years, persons of various age losing fingers, hands, toes, eyes...and having to give the first aid after each instance (workplace accidents mostly). My mind replaces those adults who made poor decisions with the faces of the boys and I don't like what I see. We go bouldering all the time. The great thing is you can do it almost anywhere and the worst thing that usually happens is a bump or a bruise or maybe a broken bone. Almost no risk of death or loss of limb. It's strenuous, very challenging, competitive, and a little imagination puts the boy over the yawning depths of a canyon not the padded carpet or the soft grass and soil of the climbing site a couple feet below. BTW, the personal fear I face on outings is in a cave where I have to stretch my arms ahead to become small enough to squeeze through a long crawl slot, becoming stuck and then unable to maneuver enough to get free. The air is damp and getting stuffy, all of a sudden my foot is jammed in a crack, my helmet is wedged in a narrow place and I can't turn my head to see how to move..... The sensation is simply exquisite!

What I remember is that the politically correct troglodytes at the network replaced the Tommy and Dick Smothers with Junior Samples.

Thanks OGE, my body was racked by waves of nostalgia.

Found it! The plane was called "Songbird". I guess there was a name for everything and 'Cessna' just didn't cut it. Another of my favorites was 'Cisco Kid'. I loved the way those shows ended and I still run the theme music once in a while when I play 'head music' while hiking or something. Better than an iPod!

Eve Arden was hot. I also remember Amos and Andy, but never really understood it back then. My favorite characters on Roy Rogers were Pat Brady and Nellie Belle. Happy Trails!

Hey you can hear, "Plunk your magic twanger, Froggie" in the original form at: http://michelesworld.net/dmm/frog/gremlin/plunk.htm I used to watch Andy, Froggy, Midnight the Cat and all the rest every Saturday. Also Captain Midnight (Ovaltine) as well as Sky King. But I don't remember his plane except it was a twin engine design. I do remember Penny and Clipper though. OK, I need to know if anyone remembers a Saturday radio show with a host whose name is something like Gil (who) Mahoney and his magical Leprechaun band. Back to the topic...maybe....one thing I am fed up with right now is the negative political ads. From every side. I'd like to vote against all of them but there would be no one left. I don't understand why any decent person would want to subject themselves or their families to this kind of treatment. And politicians wonder why we hold them in such low regard....all we have to do is listen to the campaigns, they tell us exactly why we should think poorly of them. Every. Last. One.

I guess the thing I like the least about the TV, is the tendency for children to park in front of it (or the computer) and add layers of adipose tissue intead of getting outside and developing balance, agility, and strength. The tube (or panel) just sucks the creativity out of us and it's almost addicting. I think this is one reason I have such a strong aversion to electronic gizmos on outings. The boys have a lot more fun and gain much more from being active as part of an active team. But enough of that, the commercial is almost over... Hope everyone remembered to set the clock back! Edited part: Oops, almost forgot..Gonzo1, hint, hint, the Braves, the Braves! OK, I understand but they do manage to win once in a while.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Trev, I agree completely. However, I would not wish this on a Buddhist boy. Rather, if the issue does eventually come to the surface, in my mind it would be better to put the BSA inquisition to a Buddhist adult leader rather than to a youth.

Merlyn, I think your explanation is too simple. This issue has been around long enough that those at the top in BSA would have to work hard to intentionally be that ignorant. I think it is more likely that they are in denial, unable to find a way out of the dilemma they've created with the policy. Perhaps there is another alternative.

Hey SSScout, No apologies needed especially considering the politicians my part of the country has inflicted on all of us. I enjoy 'The Simpsons' and I should probably add to that, 'Monk'. Monk, in fact, is the reason my wife won't let me cancel our cable connection, not that I've tried very hard to convince her. But as long as I have it, I also am enjoying the new version of Battlestar Galactica. Very interesting comparisons to current events. I'm a sci-fi junkie and, unfortunately, I get hooked easily on nearly anything like that. Don't get me started.....