packsaddle

Great ideas, Semper! I agree. And Beavah really hit a home run with the observation on institutional weakness. Can you imagine how much money would be SAVED by dumping the councils? I have advocated this for ours for years! Keep the camp and the service center (we get our stuff usually in 24 hours). Also agree with Trevorum's limit of 50 or so for a troop. Great ideas, folks! Think anyone is listening?

My initial thought is: How much of a problem is this in scouting already? If this is a big problem why haven't I heard about it? If not, why create the morass this thread has become? I'm with Eamonn on the gun thing. I think I agree with LisaBob and dScouter15 on the rest, although I note that BSA certainly DOES poke its nose into the sexual history of scouts and scouters...if they are gay.

What's the problem, you still have the floor right? And if you want to calm your 4-year-old, just stick him to the spot. Seriously, I know some solvents that will do the trick but they'll take up the floor as well. However, as you already know, I hope, this is what comes with the parenthood territory. And I take some bitter delight to inform you, it's only going to get better (worse). Someday when you're about 55 you can finally redo the floor or, better, move away from it. I'd go with Lisa's suggestion and a shrug.

I like the program changes that Kudu has articulated over the years. Drop the DRP and really become inclusive. Then fire some attorneys and devote those resources to the boys. Allow UUA boys to wear their real religious award, BSA pettiness has gone on too long. Although I am a strong supporter of backpacking and I do agree that it provides a harsh lesson for the unprepared, if it is made a requirement, some alternative needs to be in place for 1) handicapped persons and 2) inner city troops that simply don't have the resources. Similar comment for lifesaving and swimming. Total agreement on cooking. If BSA wants to take a giant leap forward and wants to be able to ban something. Ban Poptarts! Care should be taken during any recrafting of the requirements so that the requirement itself does not, in effect, exclude boys from the program.

Class of 1964. ASM now. I think there was a similar thread years ago, wondering if there was a comprehensive list or database anywhere. I don't remember how that one ended though.

Mostly attended by superannuated former Woodstock graduates? Interesting question though. I'd like to hear a General weasel his (or her) way around the answer. THAT would be interesting in its own right!

Regarding the 'rally' and 'move out' times: We did the same thing. On a local troop event just before the special trip, we assembled and left on time, leaving behind a fairly significant contingent of boys whose parents had to drive separately to catch up to the group. We politely greeted those who caught up and offered a sympathetic smile to each parent...but no apology. Then for the special event that I subsequently led on a national tour permit, I gave them the schedules and itineraries, including a firm notice that we would leave on time. Then AFTER we collected all their fees I sent another reminder to the parents that to meet our goals the schedule (meaning 'move out' time) would be strictly followed and we would leave right on time, no later, no excuses. I informed the parents that if they were late, however, it would still be possible for the boys to join the group as before. And I included samples of the best airline connections and fares. Everyone was there and waiting when I arrived an hour early. Moral of the story: They CAN be taught!

Man, I know this story! The worst situation is where some program needs a minimum number of boys and signups are borderline. You pay the reservation fee on the promise of getting them to commit and then sweat for months. So our policy is...like scoutldr says, if they don't show the money, the mouth is going nowhere. Sometimes I wonder if volunteerism helps cultivate a feeling in people that they should expect something for nothing? In our area, that feeling seems strongest in those who are most critical of public programs. Go figure.

I am sympathetic to the girl who envies her brother in scouting. Around here there simply was no good option for my daughter who would have been a far more accomplished scout than most of this unit, and who IS a far more accomplished outdoors'person' than most everyone I know, me included. But she didn't get the good feeling of recognition of her accomplishments by a unit, only by her dad - and as much as I know that is important, peers would have been nice as well. For this reason, I wish BSA was coed like in so many other countries. mtm25653, at the same time I also agree with you. I married a woman who was a 'tom boy' or whatever and who was very much into the outdoors. We resolved to raise our children with no gender bias, and also with as little external prejudice as possible...thinking that nurture was as powerful as nature. WHAT were we THINKING? Our conclusion: nature rules - and the best nurture can do is to nudge it a little now and then. Oh, and clean up the messes.

I think I like the way Beavah is thinking about this, unless I have misread something. I think he's clearly NOT adding to the requirements but merely advocating offering more opportunities to a 'go-getter' who otherwise might miss that call of the loon in his race to jump the next hurdle. I have only seen one of these guys and after he got Life, he nearly stopped in his tracks, only to make Eagle after another 3 years - go figure. My initial reaction to someone like this is to step to the side and allow them to pass. But I see them more often at a much later age...as pre-Med students or similar. (This is where I think PMS was first identified, Pre Med Syndrome) I can't categorize them because they are all unique individuals. However, some of them (maybe a lot) seem to view their actions as merely completing a check-off of requirements without stopping to ponder, to any depth, the meaning or consequences of the things they are learning and doing. If Beavah is advocating some means of allowing them to 'see' at greater depth or breadth then I'm with him. If a boy has the gift of such intensity and clarity of thought, then it would be a shame not to fill his vision with wonderful puzzles and opportunities. Let's face it. The advancement requirements are linear, about as linear as can be. If the go-getter finds that so easy, why not show him a little of the OTHER way of thinking? I think he's earned the privilege. A little non-linear fun (and a little more depth and breadth) could really spice things up and it could be that the go-getter would find it an even more intriguing challenge. In the end I think it could even help him become a better leader.

Wow, now after reading THAT, I think MY back is beginning to hurt in sympathy. Good thing you're not in labor!

I don't want to diminish the intent of the original post because it is a nice idea, but I do want to add to the accuracy of the description of the Bald Eagle. They are also thieves and carrion-eaters.

Yep, that 'bank of dad' thing is a nice incentive. However, I have noticed that the other edge of the blade tends to cut into the funds.... Fscouter, as a fellow fair-skinned person who experienced dozens of blistering burns before the age of 12, I share your concern. In terms of risk, I fear I'm toast (literally?) for this one. On the bright side, maybe I'll stroke out and be saved from the pain and suffering.

Thanks jblake47, for that sense of humor and reality. My personal reaction also is to cringe the way Beavah or Eamonn does when I see them being themselves. But I also recognize how the older ones are looking a lot better than they did starting out. And looking better because they want to, not because some old guy is yelling at them. I also remember my own behavior as a boy. Not much has changed in basic human behavior, I'm afraid. I recognize the rather anal (am I allowed to write this?) command structure mentioned previously. But I also recognize the more useful and more-often-used command structure that you just listed.

Ed, Here's the statement from BSA attorneys during their 1998 legal battle: "Although Boy Scouts of America is not a religious sect, it is religious, and, while the local council is not a house of worship like a church or a synagogue, it is a religious organization." You'll have to ask the attorneys or BSA which religions are endorsed and which ones are not. Frankly, I think you should have known this already. It has sure been repeated enough times in these threads.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

I was using the word, 'we', in a sense that is broader than just BSA as an organization. I question whether 'we' Americans as a nation really embrace diversity when it comes to diversity of ideas. We certainly did at times during our history but this seems to be diminished in recent times. Perhaps I am just seeing it in the wrong way but if I am, please feel free to show me the right way. Personally, I don't care as much about ethnicity, social status, or other superficial characteristics that we associate with diversity as I do about the ideas people have. It would be really interesting if a person looked and lived like a warthog but I would be more interested in their ideas (especially coming from a warthog ). But clearly, certain ideas are not allowed, as you say, in certain organizations, BSA among them. I agree with you but I differ in that I think that 'thought control' or whatever you call it, is wrong. Being punished or excluded for an idea is wrong coming from the Communist Part or the Taliban and it is also wrong from any other authority. Perhaps on that we'll just have to disagree.

Dan, Unless my memory has failed me, I think the court's declaration that BSA was a religious organization was in agreement with BSA's own claim that it was a religious organization. I don't see how anyone can doubt, considering BSA's and the court's declarations, that BSA is anything BUT a religious organization. I believe that your scenario is very interesting and it points to the heart of the problem. In the case of a boy who decides, after he has joined, that his beliefs have changed, his subsequent ejection from membership really amounts to a reaction to his thoughts and not to any action on his part whatsoever. In this sense, BSA has closed membership to persons who do not share certain IDEAS. Bring on the thought police! This aspect has several weaknesses, all of which depend on how well the organization can truly know what is in someone's mind. I suggest that an organization can never truly know what is in a person's mind. They are totally dependent on what someone may or may not SAY is in their mind and that can change at any time. The criterion fails if 1) the person has mistated or miscommunicated their thoughts, or 2) the person remains undecided and unable to clearly communicate their thoughts, or 3) the person lies, or 4) the person merely says nothing, or 5) BSA misinterprets a person's clearly-stated thoughts. The criterion works only if all involved THINK everyone else has similar thoughts (seems unlikely to me, anyone else?)...what a pleasant illusion. To me such criteria are, for want of better descriptors, illogical, thoughtless, and stupid. I remember a time when, as a child, I heard my Presbyterian church claim to welcome ANYONE who wanted to attend. I suppose 'anyone' would then be subject to persuasion to Presbyterian beliefs. Has this changed? Do churches now kick people out if they decide they don't believe in some aspect of doctrine? H'mm maybe so, seems like I remember a priest telling a woman she would be excommunicated if she used birth control, or something like that. But what if she just 'wanted' to use birth control? I guess that's what 'confession' was for. Anyway, somewhere along the line something seems to have changed. Despite claims to the contrary, we really DON'T embrace diversity, do we? At least when it comes to ideas.

Scoutldr, I see your point. I guess I view it from the vantage of a person who, according to my wife and a few others, is an insensitive clod. And, as much as I hate to admit it, they're probably right. An outright exclusion is more of a problem to me. It would be great if BSA was friendly to all people but failing that, I think grudging acceptance, though not ideal, is preferable to absolute exclusion.

Somehow I too have managed to avoid this but now I see an opportunity for mischief. So....what the hell,... I was a member of a chess club. As I remember, we were such a bunch of lonely, pathetic losers that we encouraged everyone to join even if they didn't CARE about chess, much less know how to play. It was largely the same, as I remember, for photography club. Sorry, I know it was ugly...but it had to be revealed. But the most exclusionary barrier I ever saw broken was 'Homecoming Queen' elected by numerous high schools and colleges around the country. One of my old buddies was actually the first male 'Homecoming Queen' for his college. I was sooooooo proud. And now...another male homecoming queen causes us all to merely snooze some more. Gosh, I wonder if he was a gay atheist homecoming queen? It is reputed that when Christine Jorgenson's mother was asked about her concerns for her transexual son's marriage to a black man in the South, she replied that she was more concerned that he (she) had married a Baptist. I sure hope that is a true story. Scoutldr, I would not describe that disclaimer as meaningless. It actually is a very powerful statement that makes a LOT of difference.

jblake47, I tend to agree. Brent, you are indeed lucky and I hope you can continue to have that wonderful community. I can't put all the blame on iPods and Xboxes. Those could just as well be symptoms rather than causes. I see the loss of connectedness partly as a result of our mobility. We think nothing of going for a better position and moving across the country. Our children are groomed for 'upward mobility' and those of us with the resources pay big bucks to make sure OUR children can outcompete others. And, Brent, I suspect this last item goes on in your community as well. When the idea of success through competition becomes the primary idea that structures the community, then individuals tend to become, well, more individualistic. Viola! I can't pass judgement on any of this because I'm not certain if it's correct or if it's good or bad. But I do see it as part of a predictable outcome of application of the marketplace to social interactions. It is a great experiment that we initiated long ago and there is no control for comparison. And the outome is uncertain...but it certainly will be interesting.

I find myself in agreement with Beavah. And although Fgoodwin is correct in his assessment of the illegal downloads, it would be different if the downloader did so openly in front of police at, say, Sony headquarters. THAT would be civil disobedience, not merely a cowardly act of theft...and I think this is what John-in-KC was noting. Calico, it is possible that the recent Supreme Court ruling has, in fact, established a prohibition and a limit to the liberties of the people, or at least approximately half of them. Would you agree? In that case, civil disobedience will now involve women and their doctors exercising choice in violation of the law...a much larger issue, in my mind, than illegal music downloads. Lisabob, it is possible that an administrator might institute a thoughtless new policy that adds paperwork, time, and effort to, for example, the ability to take field trips. (and you know the 'know-nothings' in the administration are famous for actions like this, right;)) It is possible that the faculty will object, tee hee. Do you obey, or do you try to reason with them, or do you simply ignore the policy (assuming that you can)? In my experience the reaction of the faculty greatly depends on whether or not they have tenure.

I was just up on Mt. Pisgah and the parkway this weekend. Perfect weather, it was absolutely lovely! A lot fallen trees from the recent high winds though, trails were a bit difficult here and there. As far as Linville Caverns, it is a real disappointment compared to the others mentioned so far...small cave and short tour. I would pass it by and go on to Linville Gorge for some good backpacking or take kayaks to the North Fork Catawba for a quick river run. There are many better alternatives.

It could be worse. You could be hooked on O'Reilly or Coulter or, I hesitate here, chocolate. On the other hand there are good alternatives, one of which includes peach ice cream. By the way, get ready for some really, really dirty clothes and some tired puppies when they return.

I can't explain all the factors contributing to it but there seems to be less of a sense of community now than in the recent past. It is almost as if we view each other as resources to exploit rather than as opportunities to enrich each other's lives. I have noticed in my travels that this also seems uniquely American. But I can't explain it.

When our children were still very young we decided to go cold turkey and DID it successfully for several years. Then, as peer pressure took its toll we gradually allowed them to watch a program or two on weekends and that allowed the camel's nose into the tent, so to speak. But for those 4-5 years, it was great. My wife and I held ourselves to the same standard as well and I remember those times fondly.