packsaddle

Gern, the Ticans recommended the same methods and at the factory they exclusively used the press. They exclusively grow the arabica coffee by national law (I think Colombia does too). As I understand it, the flavor depends on climate, soil, amount of sunlight, and roast. I suspect that good coffee can be found grown in many countries but most prefer the arabica to the robusta variety grown on a larger scale in many places. See: http://www.ineedcoffee.com/02/06/arabica/ Gonzo's coffee bags are a convenient alternative for the trail. But I've seen the press used on the trail as well. Personally, I opt for a good water filter and wait til home for the brew.

Happy Father's Day to you too, Eamonn. When I helped my children come into this world, nature took me as well. Life would be quite empty without them. And I too enjoy the boys in the unit, although it is rather vicarious at times...I sometimes am thankful that the parents are there to take final responsibility. But I understand what you say and I agree.

Attempting to get back on topic: As I understand the issue, a very useful program was created to provide safe rides. Nice. However, anyone who was gay or atheist was not allowed to volunteer to help. If anyone can explain how safe operation of a vehicle depends on sexual orientation or religious belief, I'd like to hear it. To me, THIS is the ethical problem. There is a social need and a good idea to help meet that need. But some volunteers are not allowed to provide the service for reasons that have NOTHING to do with the need OR the service. Forget the constitution and the merits of home schooling...this is just wrong.

Man! I don't see how you survive. This troop would fold in one year if we had those kind of restrictions and I sure wouldn't blame the parents either...DUH! The thought that keeps running through my mind is....this is the denomination that dominates BSA policy and governance? A lot of things are beginning to make sense now.

Welcome to the forum! Yep, if it was any other unit I'd say stick a fork in it, or time to punt, or something along those lines. I don't know much about LDS units but.... "Not to be critical but most of the LDS units I have come across in my time are little better than paper units. Most of the leaders are on a one year appointment and never go to training. If scouting was not a mandated activity by the LDS church it would never survive, as it is it barely hangs on by the skin of its teeth." Wow, RangerT did mention something about not being critical? I'm interested in learning how accurate this is for LDS units in general. Anyone know?

Heh, heh, the spoon stands up nicely if you also cook the grits in it. Dan, if you don't go to Costa Rica you nearly have to order it online. I order a case on one of their special deals (mix and match) a couple of times each year. That way the shipping is free. You can get the info from the web site. Incidentally there were a couple of other brands that went down really well. Cafe Rey was one that I remember well. A few years back, when Delta first opened up their routes, I canceled my plans to take the fam out to the Olympic National Park and instead hastily flew us all to Costa Rica. I just rented a car and winged it. We had more fun than anyone should be allowed to. But on the tour of the Cafe Britt facility, my wife (who is a coffee snob) said to me as she tasted their brew, "...if you are ever going to learn to like coffee, THIS is the place." She was right. In an apocryphal story, we were told that Costa Rica at one time issued a coffee commercial saying, "Juan Valdez drinks Costa Rican coffee". Naturally, Colombia responded with some sort of protest - whereupon the Costa Rican government found a couple of guys named Juan Valdez and produced these coffee-drinking Ticans as evidence. Nice. Of all the places I've visited, I have to say that Costa Rica is near to or at the top for friendly, welcoming people and an environment that feels completely safe for a family traveling there. I hope it stays that way.

Eagle at 12?

Gotcha! This is really about coffee and I don't endorse one brand or flavor over another but this story was too much fun not to share - Here's the link: http://www.cafebritt.com/nlgen/newsletter/index.cfm?NLGLAN=1&NLGVOL=28 and the story: The Finns and their Twins The Finnish National Museum in Helsinki has an entire room dedicated to coffee. That would surprise just about anyone who hasnt spent the last few decades working in the coffee business. But not those of us who know that Finland and its neighbor to the west, Sweden, are the beating heart center of world coffee consumption. The Finns and Swedes collectively consume twice the coffee per capita as U.S. coffee drinkers and three times more than Costa Ricans. Their collective thirst for the highest-quality coffee made the two nations a benchmark for us coffee brokers in the 1970s and 1980s. A top-quality, gourmet coffee was one we could sell to the Finns. And was this great coffee destined for gourmet coffee shops? Nope. The Finns used it as their supermarket brands. Finland and Sweden eagerly paid top dollar for the best coffee. They bought 15 to 20 percent of Costa Ricas top export coffee back when I was trading. One of Finlands top-selling brands is still called Costa Rica. Its fair to say that these two nations, who have been drinking coffee since the 1600s, were singly responsible for creating a gourmet niche market. In fact, Scandinavia was my inspiration for the name Caf Britt. Thats why it was so enjoyable to discover the National Museums coffee room, when I was in Helsinki recently for a tourism conference. I learned there about a pivotal historic dilemma that occurred while both Finland and Sweden were still a single, united nation. In 1756, coffee was banned. A top trading house, the Swedish East India Company, wanted to increase market demand for tea. A national outcry ensued. King Charles XII took a definitively monarch-style approach. According to the legend, he demanded that the people bring him two identical twins. One twin was to drink only coffee, and the other only tea. Finlands coffee-drinking future hinged on which became the healthier twin. Imagine the anxiety that must have consumed the nation! Switch to tea? A museum watercolor called Coffee Ban, depicts a woman hiding coffee in her kitchen, while police search for it in another room. After all, this is a nation that even today drinks its coffee black. True, as a part of the European Union, Finland and its offerings have become a mainstream. In shops today, youll find espresso machines. You can buy a latte, a mocha. But the Finns drink coffee for the taste of coffee the taste that continues to inspire all of Caf Britts gourmet roasts. Switch to tea? All of Finland waited, sipping coffee on the sly, until the fateful moment that secured their coffee-drinking future The twin who drank the tea died first. BTW (packsaddle here), anyone who visits Costa Rica should tour the Cafe Britt facility, it is one of the most entertaining tours of its kind that I have ever experienced. Good coffee too!

I admit...although I was raised Presbyterian and I tried very hard to be a Presbyterian, I didn't 'get' it. And now I realize that I also don't 'get' most of the other hokus pokus stuff that designates one flavor of religion from another. But that's not the topic here. The topic is really about a political statement by a priest based on his strong feelings about morality. I agree with Hunt in that it's difficult to understand how the action taken by the priest has provided net benefit to the program or to the boys. Perhaps someone can explain. Edited part: I need to add, again, that if THIS is the price of local option, I'll take local option. In time, the marketplace will reshuffle the boys to troops with whom the parents are happier...if they disagree with the priest. The market will make all the needed adjustments.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

BadenP, I guess I'm responsible for the 'divorce' issue here. Perhaps I should have suggested 'birth control' instead. I often amuse myself with the thought that the most Catholic country on Earth (Italy) also has the most strongly declining birth rate of any country. THOSE tea leaves are sure easy to read.

Heh, heh, Beavah, yeah...or who is going to cast that first stone? Actually, if this is the price we pay for local option, I'm all for it. I hadn't forseen it before now but it might be fun watching the antics of those OTHER chartering organizations.

I thought Trevorum was actually being very nice to Catholics. Trev, I have made the same observations, but Catholics around here tend to view the Pope's statements not so much as rules as 'guidelines'. But to follow up on what Aquila Calva wrote, I would also add such topics as capital punishment and divorce, etc. The shunned list would indeed be very long. Wouldn't it be nice if religion wasn't so divisive....

Welcome to the OC! Local 1400, I'd like to get those dutch oven recipes from you sometime.

This is simply a complimentary comment. I think this is the most concise and information-packed thread I have ever read in these forums. The question was sufficiently vague to allow some very comprehensive answers that can help answer a broad range of other questions. I would like to thank everyone involved. I may print the whole thread and post it to our committee and leadership. It re-emphasizes many things I have been trying to communicate to them for a long time. Nice.

....thinking wistfully....It sure would be nice, wouldn't it, if religion wasn't so divisive?

I stand before all of you and confess...by my own curiosity I am a slave to horrified fascination. The Scout, you advocate, in theory, the 'right' of a government (by virtue of a one vote margin), to subjugate half (minus one vote) of a nation to slavery. To me that seems to have a certain impact on individual rights and freedoms. If this is actually neutral to or an ENHANCEMENT of individual rights and freedoms in some way, I'm interested in learning how that is. But you just mentioned "certain governments". Which ones? State? County? Parish? Territory? City, etc.? And why certain ones and not the others? Explain please. Please forgive me, fellow forum members, I can't help myself.

tsk, tsk! I am often amused by discussions of 'grey-areas' that seem to suffer from deficiencies of 'grey matter'. Have we beat this dead herring enough yet?

Despite the tedium, and I agree on that...it is an interesting contrast that one seems to advocate subordinating individual rights to government, and the other seems to advocate limits to the power of a government to limit individual rights. When I put these advocacy positions aside the respective personalities, I am tempted to add this to my collection of delicious ironies. Thanks guys!

I love the cubs. I wish I was still cubmaster or something. But back when I WAS cubmaster, our 'high adventure' stuff usually occurred during special events such as family campouts. The family is a good guide to the limits. If mom or dad is involved, they will know. But specifically, on our family campouts I would schedule an afternoon dayhike to the top of a nearby mountain as one of the 'high adventures'. The cubs already knew the reputation of this and similar hikes and they knew who'd done it already and everyone had a great time hiking really hard for an hour or so to get a great view of the camp and surrounding mountains. Then we'd return all hot and sweaty and go for a 'swim' below a nearby waterfall to cool off. Everything we did was an adventure for these boys, whether it was catching frogs and snakes at night or wandering the trails, or 'discovering' the old mica mines on a nearby hill. We'd do the high ropes course with careful supervision (and again, only if parents supported the activity) and we'd put canoes on the pond and have splash fights. My advice is not to try for anything exotic, it's not necessary. Just put them out in nature someplace, take away the electronic gizmos, and they'll make their own adventures. Just keep 'em safe and they'll make the memories on their own.

Just curious, The Scout, about how far your 'states rights' views go. Do you think Dred Scott should not have been overturned? Do you support a state's power to make slavery legal? Do you support a state's power to establish, say, Sharia Law? Where do you draw the line where a state's power is limited in some way? Just curious. Edited part: state's "right" evolved into state's "power", thanks Merlyn.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

The answer to the Murdoch question is 'No'. The Evening Standard is actually a competitor, not that that makes it any more reliable. I agree on the photo analysis. It was a very simple thing in the 'before' image. I'd feel badly if those poles weren't reused elsewhere. Trevorum's note is something I've also observed. The Christian majority in this region also exerts its primacy at devotionals of many sorts. Our scouts who are Jewish or Hindu or Muslim, etc., simply sit silently. They claim not to feel excluded but they are obviously not 'included'.

I have also seen this and it hurts the program, the troop, and the boys. However, I think that this type of leader/martinet is out there in many forms and those who happen to be Eagles are merely using the rank to support a position that they would take anyway, using other tactics and forms of support if they didn't happen to be Eagles. I wish I knew enough about people to understand why some seem to need to be 'in charge' of everything. I would like to think that these control freaks are motivated by deep-seated fears but that's too simple.

Moth zeroing in on the candle.... I actually respect both views on this for different reasons. I respect Merlyn's view because he is usually very meticulous about his ideas and I enjoy his sharp analysis. If we read him carefully, he is actually trying to show us a problem with BSA policy and his way to solve it. Some of us agree with him. At the same time, I recognize that he has thin skin on some things (who doesn't?) and sometimes crafts responses whose tone actually detracts from very good logical points. Again, there are few of us who are not also guilty of that (except OGE, of course). Beavah's point is also good because it supports a dispassionate (polite, if you will) mode of discourse. I'm glad he is here to help dampen the emotions (mine included) when they get the best of us. Nevertheless, I continue to support the general approach that we should attack ideas not people, and that when our idea is thus attacked we must try not to take it personally. Most of us have some good ideas from time to time but we all must admit...we cook up some really flawed ideas as well. Here's the problem: If someone with whom we often disagree attacks our idea and shows its flaws to the forum in an impolite manner, we should respond (even if only to ourselves) by politely thanking them for the service of relieving us of a thinking error. They actually have done us a service, even if they intended to make us feel badly about it. It's just an idea, after all, right?

While I agree with Gonzo1 on the word usage in this case, I think Beavah has a really good general approach to these regulations and guidelines (Thanks Acco40 for posting them again.) Driving a few hours after dark, if necessary, is fine although setting up camp in the dark can be interesting, especially if it's about to rain all night. Driving all night, on the other hand, is too risky...at least for me, I'd never do it with the boys in tow. To me there are only two main goals to meet, getting there and back safely and having fun on the trip. The regulations and guidelines can help with both if leaders just apply some common sense like Beavah says.

Trevorum beat me to it and I agree with his assessment. I would also note that I think it is unlikely that the LDS contingent would take that action and leave merely because local option became available. Once their 'moral outrage' was tempered by reality...that local option is already being practiced and it's not going away...they'd reluctantly stick with the program and exercise their own local option. In other words, all the COs would at last be free to do the right thing, whatever they determine that to be. One more thought on this: I think it is inaccurate to make an strict association between the LDS church and such things as homophobia. I think that LDS members are still free to decide for themselves and while some may, in fact, be homophobes, many are not. I doubt that LDS is sufficiently monolithic to take an action like leaving en masse without a significant internal upheaval that could be more easily avoided by taking no action at all.