packsaddle

Heh, heh, Joni down here we just let the corn cobs dry out. That way we can use them over and over....

Wow, this thread has really moved since I took a few hours and enjoyed, you know...Life. But Eolesen, you said something I think Dan and Trevorum partially responded to and I wanted to add something to it: "Unitarians, equally about as far away from being theist as organized religions get, are also active in BSA. Their religious emblem program was revoked when they added language inconsistent with BSA's policy on homosexualtiy into their "Religion in Life" handbook, but Unitarians are still welcomed as members." While the emblem program that Trevorum mentioned does exist and it has been annointed by BSA, the original official UUA program also still exists through P.R.A.Y. I'm sure Trevorum will correct me if I err in my response and I welcome that if I'm wrong. I have clipped the following summary from Wikipedia to explain: "As of late 2007, the Religion in Life program of the Unitarian Universalist Association (UUA), progressive church with roots going back to colonial times, is the only religious emblem program listed through P.R.A.Y. that is not recognized by the BSA. The Unitarian Universalist Scouters Organization (UUSO) created the Living Your Religion program in May 2005 as a parallel award for Unitarian Universalist youth. It was announced by P.R.A.Y. that the BSA had accepted this award although the program is not listed by P.R.A.Y. The program was promoted at the 2005 National Scout Jamboree and shown as having BSA approval in the UUSO membership brochure and the Living Your Religion Guidebook. The UUA has stated that the UUSO is not recognized as an affiliate organization. As of March 2006, the UUSO has a stated goal to create a set of awards that are recognized by the UUA and BSA." It could be fairly claimed that the UUSO/BSA award is the only religious award for which BSA has virtually taken an active role in its design - someone correct me if I'm wrong. This whole issue has been discussed thoroughly in past threads but the above clip hits the high points. The low points were delivered by BSA to the UUA scouts, IMO. However, BSA had neither the authority nor the ability to "revoke" the UUA program. BSA, however, WAS able to disallow UUA boys from WEARING the religious emblem on their uniforms...officially.

"I (have) written numerous times that the government needs to be neutral on religious matters." And so you have. And so the government should be. The problem is that a particular religious tradition has dominated society for so long that any change toward "neutrality" seems to them to be a move toward atheism. In that mindset, anyone who disagrees can be viewed as evil, or an enemy. Onward Christian Soldiers! OK, it could also be that they understand this quite well and are just using that argument for effect to promote their own political agenda.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

OGE, you and Trevorum may have met your match here, heh, heh. Me, I'm still stuck on that image of 400 pounds of naked adipose tissue. And man it's HOT! I think I can up the ante on that one, though. Think of that mass with a full beard, farmer's tan, long scraggly unwashed hair bunched into a late-middle-age ponytail, cigar in corner of mouth, and a beer in one hand. Now....add a thong. Muhhahahahaha! Gern, I hope you realize you're also trashing one of my few remaining dreams in life. Sad, sad. It really hurts.

Calico and Beavah have encapsulated this nicely. Years ago, during YPT training, a heated discussion along these lines occurred and this thread would have been quite helpful back then. I also didn't help that the training was being led by someone barely equivalent to a really intelligent bucket of nails. But Calico and Beavah did a nice job. Thanks.

Heh, heh, I've been asked about this so many times....for years now. But I looked up the name of the culprit the first time. There WAS a guy by that name and I bet he really hated this thing, heh, heh. So I wrote the guy to get his take on it. I nearly fell out of my chair when I learned it was true. The snopes site actually gives even more detail than I was aware of at the time. Great lead, Eamonn. Thanks for the link, Beavah.

Yep.....I'm beginning to understand your obsession with the undead.

Now stop picking on Chicago. OGE, you instigator you...you ought to be ashamed of yourself! There are plenty of other places in the country where voting has been, let us say, not completely honest or free, like the entire South for example. But Chicago has great architecture, great universities, a wonderful lake, lots of parks, and some world class museums. OK, the baseball and football teams are, well, quaint, but how about those hotdogs!

Or not. Reminds me of Pat Paulson. I think I still have one of those old campaign buttons. I used to love the Smothers Brothers and then that awful He Haw thing replaced them. American History, I guess... http://www.islandpacket.com/news/local/story/56811.html "Heads of both South Carolina parties said Wednesday they would welcome the comic on their tickets." "With two weeks left to file for the state's races, Colbert will have to pony up $35,000 to enter the Republican primary and find either $2,500 or 3,000 signatures to join the Democrats." That's quite a difference, but I guess the Republicans are more money-oriented...or else the Democrats are rolling in it. Nah. But the following two quotes tell us a lot about the parties in SC: "The whole thing is farcical. He's just creating attention for himself," said Sun City resident Maureen Hermiston, who plans to vote in the Republican primary and is a member of the Sun City Republican Club. "All I know is he's a comedian and he mostly pokes fun at Republicans." Pat Goodman, a Sun City resident who runs the Sun City Democrat Club, said, "... I think it's great when someone with a sense of humor enters politics. It lightens things up," said Goodman, who runs the Sun City Democratic Club. "But I'm not concerned it will make any kind of real difference." I'd say the 'sense-of-humor' war is definitely over.... "After Colbert chatted with real-life pundit Larry King last week about a possible bid, South Carolina's public television channel ETV invited the comic to start his campaign with them. Colbert was the No. 1 choice among college students in a recent ETV poll asking who would inspire their interest in politics and the election, said Catherine Christman, the station's vice president of communications." He'll probably take votes away from Ron Paul.

Excuse me...I thought this thread was about hand wringing and revenge. Sooorrrrryyyyy!

Yeah, I was in Yellowstone NP watching a mother bear and her cub. A Harley rode by with the usual, "Hey look at me, I'm on a loud Harley!", exhaust. It scared both cub and mom so badly that both went up a tree. HD ought to be banned from the park. In contrast I think the Wings have that wonderful comforting sound from my youth, lying in bed at night listening to the night insects and frogs through the window and my mother's Singer sewing machine down the hall. Jesus would have ridden a Wing, you know. OK, maybe a BMW. But not a HD.

"they like to call us Xians" The first time I ever heard this in my life was today. In these forums. And I know lots of atheists - other flavors as well. So I googled it. Seems that "Xian" is problematic in that it also is the name of some city in China. So the preferred (yet incorrect) way to spell it is 'Xtian' (presumably to prevent confusion in Google searches;) ). I feel several responses. First, I would like to say that Gold Winger undoubtedly rides one of the sweetest machines every to roll over pavement. I could go on and on but suffice to say, that when my wife sees me surfing the web and asks what I'm looking at, I mention my love affair and my secret lover...and then I show her a page full of these wonderful motorcycles. She just rolls her eyes. Someday...... I also have to admit that I didn't know that 'Xtian' was used in the pejorative, applied to Christians. Big deal. It's just name-calling. I wouldn't worry about it. But then, I don't exactly fit in well with the PC world. So....tell me about the Wing. What color? Year? Model? Tell us about that smooth delivery of quiet power and the comfort of a ride across the country as if in a low flying airplane...I am sooooo envious.

Scoutldr, we're working on our 4th uninsured motorist collision right now. That doesn't include the drunk that nearly killed my family. Needless to say, I sympathize with your frustration. Years ago, my great Aunt, crippled and in her 70s, called the sheriff to report someone stealing her timber. The perp was caught and when the deputy brought him to her, all she told the deputy was, "You just hold him still while I beat hell out of him with my cane", heh, heh, I can still hear her voice, I really miss her. Sometimes I feel the same, especially when I realize that 30% of every auto insurance premium goes to pay for uninsured motorists. The right thing is what keeps the system going. The system keeps going because there are still enough of us who understand this and keep trying to do "the right thing". And, then, in these forums we have fun arguing about it, right? The deputy knew what the right thing was. He paused a long time while the guy sweated over a potential beating from an irate old lady. Then he said, calmly, that he couldn't agree to do that but he would charge the thief with grand larceny. She'd already fumed off most of her temper so she agreed. Me, this most recent uninsured motorist is going to take a beating at the hands of the law, I hope. If not, I still plan to try to do the right thing, knowing that it's the example I want my kids to see...and the boys in our unit. That, and I can sleep at night with a clear conscience. And I still think that the majority of other people out there in the world are also decent folks, also trying to do the right thing. Otherwise why else would so many of us be here arguing about it?

You bet! I do notify them of the likely appeal and its likely success. So far I've been successful in keeping all this in the background and, knock on the rule book, so far no boy has had to appeal.

Let's see, I'm trying to find "freedom of association" in the Constitution, also "Right to Privacy". Can anyone help me out here? Lisabob, years ago when I was CM, the DE invited himself to our B&G and he DID 'foam at the mouth' about gays and atheists. Our enrollment declined a week later during rechartering. Some of the families confided even later to me that the DE's 'foaming' was the reason. These were regular people with no agenda other than to avoid that kind of environment for their boys. The DE was never invited to speak again as long as I was there. We went on to thrive as a pack. I suspect that, as mentioned a while back, BSA knows it is in a lose-lose situation with respect to this policy and, things being all about money, BSA decided to finesse these issues to try to avoid the bad publicity without jeopardizing support of some of their largest denominations. I could be wrong but this makes sense in light of the jumble of actions, lack of actions, and realities as applied in the field. Moreover, Lisa, your logic is impeccable regarding the lack of BSA whining. If we are good scouters we should all be in lock-step behind the apparent decision by BSA to conform to the Philly decision. In the improbable event that we find ourselves on a lifeboat and Lisa is voted off...1) I will defend her and then 2) I will volunteer in her place. I note here that there are plenty of drunks and con-men (con-persons) out there who, upon getting caught breaking the law, feel sorry for themselves as victims of people out to get them. The victim stance is a pathetic self-deception. If anyone doesn't want to be sued because of their illegal discrimination, they should STOP BREAKING THE LAW! Philly stopped and they're not getting sued as a result. Good for them! BSA is free to continue to legally discriminate on the basis of religion and sexual orientation, or any other basis they choose (race, eye color, national origin, anything). But if a government entity helps subsidize BSA, that entity can expect to be sued for breaking the law. And rightfully so.

Fscouter, I agree. Lately, in my arguments about these things I am having some good luck when I challenge them to write their 'new rules' and distribute them in some way so that everyone can read them and know in advance what is required. That has really stopped them so far because THEY can't even agree on most of their 'new rules'. It is so much a personal opinion for each of them that if anyone ever does write the rules as a draft for review, I predict that the review process will be fun to watch/particpate in. AND until they do write something, I get to continue to accuse them of forcing arbitrary, unfair, and unevenly applied non-standard rules. This puts THEM between a rock and a hard place and with printed regulations in my hand, the boys have the high ground.

OGE, pull down your security blanket and get out of your cozy little hole and look at the real world. I say this with great affection, BTW. Why did we all HATE middle school? Why is middle school the dread and bane of so many parents? HORMONES! Take a look at what is really happening, regardless of what we would like to happen. Now, ask youself...do you want those kids to have a little protection if they ask for it, or do you want them to just throw caution to the wind. You might get through to a few of them with the lecture about abstaining from sex. What response do you think you'll get from many others, a polite shrug? A one-finger salute? Yes, I'd hand them the condoms, especially if they were willing to go to a counselor or nurse and ask for them. I wouldn't care if all they did was use them for really great water balloons. We looked hard at the children and the community, took our daughter to the doctor, got her a prescription for the pill and notified her that as of that day, if she got herself in trouble she would not be able to claim she didn't know or didn't have an alternative. She would not be able to lie her way out of her predicament. THAT made a very strong impression. I still don't have grandchildren eight years later. I have lots of second thoughts about many decisions. That is not one of them.

OGE, I confront this stuff more and more frequently. My tactic is to produce the written regulations and ask them on what basis they think they are allowed to violate the regulations. If they can offer a lucid, reasonable explanation, then it is worth hearing. And I do listen to them. If not, otherwise, it usually leaves THEM with the shaking and stomach knots, not me. I think it helps to cultivate and maintain objective detachment in arguments like this. This allows you to focus on the rationale of both sides, to see more easily the flaws in your opponents' arguments, and sometimes to see the flaws in yours as well. I wish you luck. If I was there, I'd stand with you and take some hits for you.

I agree with Scoutldr, Eamonn, and CalicoPenn. BSA knew the risks and took a particular legal stance in support of discrimination. Now it is time to pay the piper. I cannot fault the city for following the law. If they continued to basically 'give' the property to BSA they would be breaking the law. So...let's see...on one hand, Philly breaks the law, gains no income from BSA, gets sued by ACLU, and has to pay out a lot of money for the legal battle. On the other hand, Philly acts lawfully and charges BSA, thus making money. Folks, this is a no-brainer, IMHO. If BSA can't afford to compete in the marketplace for office space, then maybe they need to find cheaper digs.

Hops, If you feel good about your accomplishments in life, that is all that counts. The fact that some others place value in superficial things should not deter you from seeking your place in life. I can assure you with great confidence that universities place almost no specific value on the Eagle award when making admissions decisions - at least not compared with grades and SAT or ACT scores. After those factors, good admissions processes look at the details of all the activities and accomplishments of the applicants, especially any letters of support, and including all awards including the Eagle rank. Don't let anyone tell you that an Eagle with lesser grades will be ranked higher than you for a college admission. If that happens, you don't want to attend there anyway. I do understand that within the little closed society of scouting, Eagle is the epitome of existence for some members. You are about to go out into a much larger world, however. And there, while Eagle is a great thing, it isn't the be-all and end-all of either life or academics. If you would like to bounce your college ideas or concerns off me, give me a PM sometime.

First, I have worked with the Army enough to appreciate the chain of command and the structure and order it provides. If Joni takes this to the DE, BSA has officially been notified and that should be sufficient. The DE would then have the responsibility to take the next step. If she takes it to the SE, that will probably work more quickly but if the DE understands the gravity of this situation, the DE will accomplish the same end. I see this as an unnecessary problem. Take it to one or the other. The effect will be the same. Just do it soon. That "dream" thing did bring a smile, didn't it? Come on, admit it. Now, I would like to mention that I have, in the past, lauded what I will characterize as the effective superiority of women, at least in the realm of my profession. Joni and Lisabob, you are not helping my argument with your praise of the 'male-dominated' work environment. I can point to literally hundreds of male whack jobs and drama-persons. Some of them are in jail. Many of the rest are called "faculty". Or perhaps I merely...h'mmmmm....like the scenery better with all the women....thinking....

Hey! I thought this was about public transport or regional envy or something. BTW, they have been distributing condoms for a long time. I wish they did it here as well.

Gee thanks. It is almost as if I don't hear about my imperfections already, maybe a couple hundred times a day from my wife.

For some reason I can't edit these things. Sorry, OGE, I didn't understand. Maybe Ohio_Scouter will repeat that message in the other thread and bring it back to life.

This needs to be in that old Cradle of Liberty thread. OGE, you listening?