packsaddle

Gold Winger, I tend to agree with you on the Bible thing but as long as there is no way to know for sure, there remains a small but finite probability... Anyway, belief based on faith alone is unassailable by reason. Back to topic. It is easy to envision situations which force us to confront conflicting absolute moral choices with lesser consequences if we choose - or greater consequences if we fail to choose. Anyone who makes the choice (it doesn't matter which one) is engaging in moral relativism. They might even be thought of as heroic. We can pretend to possess those absolutes but real life is rarely so simple.

And Happy Thanksgiving to all of you guys as well...even Rooster7, wherever you are, and especially littlebillie whom I do very much miss from these forums. Biblical scholar? Bite your tongue! Nah, I just keep learning things from my Biblical-scholar-wannabe forum friends. Your description of a thoroughly relativistic Biblical history and theology was nice, though. I'm afraid that I don't have the multiple lifetimes needed to penetrate most of those mysteries so I WILL stick to science (which is taking most of this lifetime as it is). I note that economics is referred to as the 'dismal science' and I often hear the others mentioned as 'pseudo-science', all of which mean, 'not ready for prime time yet', heh, heh. (I'll probably catch some comments for those characterizations ) But, heh, heh, these days we use viruses instead of leeches (as current headlines note) and we're crossing the boundaries between those electrons and human life with increasingly great success. But I fail to see how this is inconsistent with your last comment. I agree with your characterization of human interactions and how it ought to be. I just think that science is another way to get there as well. So have a safe, warm, happy Thanksgiving. And I mean this sincerely and warmly: Enjoy your genetically-modified food, produced with pesticides and chemical fertilizers, processed and packaged, cooled, and transported with energy subsidized with fossil fuels, and prepared using directed electromagnetic radiation using synthetic polymers and composite materials. And briefly thank God for the bountiful harvest that He allowed science to bring to your lives, which you can then forget about to enjoy a day of feast and an evening of indigestion. Happy Thanksgiving.

Trevorum, I'm thinking that perhaps one of those mini-raptures might have snagged ol' Rooster7 after all, heh, heh. And the rest of us were just left behind. I guess I need to make this relevant though so I brought back this old thread to respond to another one...Beavah said in the other thread, "Seems like most of da heroes and saints were pretty absolute in their views of right and wrong, eh? Moral relativism, like Marxist-Leninism, rabid Fundamentalism, Fascism, etc. is just another dumb idea. It may have left the station, but it's runnin' off the rails just like the rest of the dumb ideas." Interesting...how do your distinguish "rabid fundamentalism" from some other kind, I wonder? Seems to me that many "fundamentalists" are true believers of 'moral absolutism'. And I think that the fascists and marxists probably felt fairly absolute in their moral codes as well. Was that statement supposed to make sense? But to respond: Nah, moral absolutism is only something that exists in your own perception and mind. It might feel good to you but you can't put even a few of your moral absolutes to critical examination and have them stand up to real situations.

OGE, I was thinking the same thing about good old American ''individualism'' but you saved me the trouble. Thanks. The "breeder" comment reminded me of what Ken Hamblin often said regarding teen welfare mothers. He labeled them as "broodmares". And as I remember (I''ll try to get this right)...he said they should be fed their ovaries stir fried as their last government-subsidized free meal. Heh, heh, you won't hear THAT many places outside conservative talk-show land. My point in mentioning this is that in our country, we ARE free to speak our minds. This is closest thing to a land of a free market for ideas. And as such, I think Slouchhat is welcome to bring his ideas to the marketplace. To me this is consistent with both the American ideal as well as scout spirit. I guess I could be wrong. Edited part: I almost forgot, Hey! Nebraska isn't the armpit of the world for anyone, probably not gays either. They happen to have a great cuisine! Take a look: http://www.lasr.net/pages/city.php?City_ID=NE0204005&VA=Y&Attraction_ID=NE0204005a002 Bon Apptit!(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

While you two are sorting out who's going to eat the poisonous one and who's going to be bitten by the venomous one, the last question has been addressed (at least attempted) by Alan Weisman in his book, "The World Without Us". Here's a link that may stimulate some interest: http://www.worldwithoutus.com/ I'm taking a look at it now to see if any of it can be adapted for a course I'm teaching soon. This stuff is such great fun!

Welcome to the forums! Glad to have you among us. I hope you find the forums as helpful as I have...and sometimes a fun place to spar with other members.

Merlyn, in the other thread I just wrote almost the same thing regarding the application. I agree. If these membership criteria are so important that people are excluded on their basis, state these membership criteria clearly and prominently on the application.

Go to their web site. They're a fund-raising management company with a variety of products and solutions. Boooorrrrriiiiinnnnnnggg!

Going back to something onehouraweekmy wrote a few messages back, 'disapproval' by itself does not connote 'hate'. TJ probably doesn't care much if onehouraweekmy approves of him or not. Onehouraweekmy's opinion of anything is irrelevant to TJ's life except that it is associated with an exclusionary policy that is aimed specifically at TJ. Then, if TJ considers that policy to be hateful, that's TJ's prerogative. Onehouraweekmy and likeminded folks are in control of the policy. They support and maintain the exclusionary policy. But they can't control both the exclucionary policy AND the responses of persons who they excluded. This should be obvious. What I don't get is why do they whine so much about the opinion of someone they have specifically excluded? Seems to me that if they do exclude someone, they shouldn't mess their pants in shock when the excluded person reacts in a predictable manner. Those in control, well, they're in control. They should celebrate their primacy in excluding people for whatever reason. They should take the resulting criticisms proudly, as tokens of their righteousness, and proclaim these things openly for all to see. Advertise BSA as the anti-gay, anti-atheist religious club that it has won the right to legally be. OK, don't want to do that? Then just put these exclusionary things explicitly on the applications so that EVERY applicant will understand clearly. I won't be holding MY breath while I wait for THAT to happen though.

As you probably suspect, you are not the first to rant about some of the merit badges 'completed' at summer camp. My experience has been similarly varied. Some badges, usually involving waterfront or other physical activities, are well-done. Some, usually the 'sit-down-and-lecture' type, are embarrassing. Regarding IDs, as a trained botanist, I could go along with knowing the genus of the plant. The family level is much too broad (for example the Poaceae includes all the grasses, including bamboo, corn, and rice). But the genus is good if being more specific is difficult (the various oaks, for example). I don't know what to do about the MB problem though. In this unit I try to steer the boys away from the so-called 'knowledge-based' badges (many of which you listed) and towards the waterfront or things like first aid, fishing, pioneering, or archery and shooting activities. But I'm with you on this topic.

Couple of comments. First, TJ mostly knows my views on this so I'll try to offer something new. I have, in the past, said that I don't 'care' about certain things. This is usually meant in the sense that those things are not part of my decision-making process. But I want TJ to know that, in fact, I DO care about whether or not a person is gay or atheist or of any particular ethnicity, etc. I care because I enjoy being with diverse people and ideas. I enjoy the new thoughts that they bring to my mind and I see the contribution they make and the loss that we all suffer when they are excluded. I do care about TJ being gay. It is important to me because it is important to TJ. Now, I tend to agree with TJ's assessment of the topic of prejudice as related to BSA policy. And with regard to Biblical authority, my mind focuses on the second great commandment that begins, "love thy neighbor...". And as BSA excludes boys on this basis, I think of passages from Matthew 25, starting somewhere around verse 30, I think, where Jesus says, "And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." These verses resound because they make sense. Finally, I really don't CARE what the orientation or religious views are for people parading around in thongs. I just want to shake them and ask, "what the 'heck' are you thinking?!" If a body is beautiful, that thong isn't going to improve things. I mean, OOOOWWWWW! Why bother? If you've got it flaunt it (Thanks Flip Wilson) For all the rest of us, well, fabric is cheap and thankfully plentiful.

Back before it was a Wild and Scenic River, I'd run the Chattooga with some GA Tech guys and we'd eat dinner afterwards at the Dillard Motor Lodge in Clayton, GA. It wasn't too long after they had filmed "Deliverance" and Burt, etc. had stayed there. The cafeteria style serving line was famous. Anyway, and there IS a connection, one of the ladies working there dipped snuff, the real kind that is as fine as talcum powder. She also seemed to constantly scowl. And as she served us, we would always note a dried ring of snuff juice that encircled her mouth. We referred to her as the 'Brown Frown'. Heh, heh, I often wondered what it was that made her food so good. But I can tell you, as far as I am concerned, and after kissing women who engaged in some alternatives, there are things worse than smoking cigarettes. Have a nice day.

Man, I'm with you on the video game thing and with regard to the sedentary lifestyle (which reminds me, I need to get off this thing and do something useful ). But I splurted some comments about the above a while back and got yelled at in another thread. Think I'll just go have some cookies.

Onehouraweekmy also made some statements regarding homosexuality. I'll let someone else respond if they want to. But I'm wondering, is it possible that ANY controversial thread will ALWAYS evolve to arguments over homosexuality and atheism? It sure seems like it to me at times.

Wow, from 'love it or leave it' to whether or not the sky is blue, to moral relativism. Onehouraweekmy, I sense that what you are communicating is that you DO work in moral absolutes and because of that...I'm trying to connect it to sky color or 'loving it or leaving it.' FWIW, the absolute vs relative arguments have been made many times. It's too late, protests to the contrary, because the train of moral relativism left the station a long, long, time ago. I disagree with your contention that it is OK to steal and murder. These are moral standards that are easily derived from either absolute or relativistic viewpoints. And they require no hocus pocus or sacred documents for their derivation. Also, 'survival of the fittest' doesn't necessarily mean death for anyone. 'Fitness' is actually a measure of reproductive success and subsequent similar success of offspring. If you have already produced offspring and are into 'geezerdom' as my daughter calls it, death will hardly alter your fitness. However, for a child who has not grown to reproductive maturity, death is not the only way to greatly alter fitness. Debilitating disease, sterility, birth defects, bad hair (sorry, couldn't resist;)), etc. are other ways to alter or eliminate fitness in a non-lethal manner.

Color perception is one of the most interesting topics! Here is a link that I think has some wonderful color illusions. The science is even more fun. http://www.echalk.co.uk/amusements/OpticalIllusions/illusions.htm

I am sympathetic to the idea that most of us need less to eat and that most snacks fall into the class of 'junk food'. But my den would, mostly during the winter, sometimes have an activity like making cookies or cupcakes in the church kitchen. The cubs would do almost everything themselves and we'd even let them 'customize' the stuff from some occasionally very imaginative ideas. There is no way that activity would be complete if they weren't allowed to eat the products (and sometimes throw it away due to inedibility). For those days when the boys ran hard for about an hour or two, I would give them juice and cookies as they left. A final reward for a good meeting. I'm not experiencing strong feelings of remorse, I think.

Heh, heh, yes I remember it well.... I agree with getting the den out of the house. Get them active. Don't feed them at the beginning. The candle thing works OK sometimes. I used to schedule every den meeting I could at the local park. Then before the boys arrived I had a big cooler on the table - closed. And a pile of rope or some other item on the ground. The first one who arrived I'd ask him if he could help me with a problem. It's funny, the way EVERYONE on these forums has an opinion...they also seem to think they have the solution to a PROBLEM...and they want to help. I'll get him to run with the tape measure or the rope or something down the park so I can measure something. The next boys arrive. They want to know what I'm doing. I'm setting up a contest. They're in.... I learned that once I established every den meeting with some sort of physical challenge at the beginning, they came to expect it and look forward to it. When it was warm, we also employed water (sorry parents ). We had foot races, tugs of war, tugs of war with lopsided teams. We'd have throwing contests - softballs or footballs, distance or targets. You get the idea. Once I saw sweat pouring off them I let them have water or something. Sweat's easier to see if they have a layer of dirt from the activities. Much calmer now. Now, if it looked like the cutesy craft thing we were going to try just isn't in the cards, we'd try a different challenge. How to get that rope up over the limb to make a rope swing. They'd try and try and try relentlessly. And sometimes we'd actually get to swing (and I'd have to get a heavier rope next time). These guys are best viewed as chimpanzees with the moral compass of raccoons (they'll sneak into that cooler if they get the chance). Once you understand that you are not a babysitter but really a zookeeper, it becomes understandable and even fun for the leader as well. Noise, action, running, tumbling, water, dirt. What could be better? If it was raining, we'd meet at the church and run crab soccer games up and down the hallway. The little church ladies would scowl with their mouths all puckered up like...well, nevermind. But I'd just shrug and ask the boys, "Hey, want to do it again?". Yeah, I know...simple pleasures. And...just before they got picked up to go home, I rewarded their good behavior with juice and a cookie snack. Heh, heh, just for the parents who didn't stay to help out.

Joni4TA, I think I understand your sensitivity to the message. That 'bumper sticker' kind of quip can be viewed by some as a cute way to get the message across. But those messages pay no attention to the personal effort and struggle that real people must use to overcome things in their lives. As for me personally, I am glad that you take measures not to shorten the lives of those around you by removing the behavior both physically and as an example. I speak for myself, but possibly also for others, when I write that I hope you will someday be able to stop shortening YOUR life as well.

Trevorum, you KNOW that list is very, very long - just name off any prejudice that ever existed. Gern said, "Just like our parents were more inclined to openly discriminate against blacks, our generation's attitudes changed." Man, I sure hope so. In fact, in an ad hoc sort of way, this is the way I view death as a positive, creative force. It diminishes old views that are seen by society as less valuable and allows new people a chance to do better. Doesn't always work though, sadly.

Me, I smoke too. I mostly smoke carp. Takes a really big sheet of paper and you have to suck real hard. Or you can eat 'em. Not bad either. Thanks Greg, for noting the dead horse. I was about to mention the same thing. It is an addiction. Everyone knows it. There's not much chance of changing behavior by continuing to beat the carcass. A better thing would to add about $10 per pack in tax. Greed might outweigh the craving.

Trevorum writes: ""... those squirmy little 6-10 year olds ..." This vivid image proves to me that Lisabob has been there and knows what she's talking about." And I can tell you I've been there too. Makes me squirm a little just thinking about it...but I really, REALLY enjoyed those days. I'll say it again, I really loved the cub scouts. Those little guys are the greatest, every last one of them. They can squirm all they want. And I'd go back to the cubs in a heartbeat if I was needed there. More to the point, even the parents of the boys who join the troop are mostly unaware of this issue or simply don't want to hear about it. They definitely recoil when they become aware of the issue. The only parent I can remember who had a problem with gays or atheists in our unit also openly had a problem with blacks. He's history. Beavah, the illogical part is the contradiction between, as you say, the fact that "...of course that's what the top brass realizes" and the fact that their stated policy (regardless of how poorly enforced) says they demand otherwise for membership. OK, maybe 'illogical' isn't strong enough. Gonzo1, you sweet, sweet man! You must know that if two heterosexual males kiss in affection, BSA might do something about it but it won't be because of the gay issue. As an adult male, I often kissed my father with great affection and he kissed me, even near the moment of his death in my arms. I see nothing wrong with that.

LongHaul, as I understand it, if they sign the form...that's that. If no other evidence ever surfaces, then BSA has no basis for any action except that they theoretically have the right to kick anyone out for any or no particular reason. No volunteer leader, as far as I know, has the authority to search out people who might not qualify as members. BSA doesn't actively hunt down those who don't tell and volunteers ought to have better things to do with their time as well. To me this is a major logical flaw to the policy. DADT is the practical (and unavoidable) outcome of the policy. I think the top brass is smart enough to realize this and also to realize there is no use in worrying about something they can't control.

"There's a noticeable difference between trying to change some low-order rule like scouts can't sponsor a hunting trip and trying to get BSA to formally admit open and active homosexuals and professed atheists." The difference I see is that the option with the firearms subjects boys to a significant risk.

Wow, that makes my head hurt just thinking about it...kind of like trying to understand time travel. But I tend to agree. Nevertheless, the folks who started Spiral Scouts knew they would start small. If they are happy with that start, what's the problem?