packsaddle

Hi Brent, I think each of us will make what we think is the best and most-rational decision we can. At least I hope so. But this year the candidates, at least on the Republican side, have made religion a political issue. And that is making things very interesting. This may end up being a very long-lived thread. Anyway, I found my old copy of the Book of Mormon (my family flirted with it back when I was a teen). I plan to read it this weekend and try to remember all the things those two missionaries said so long ago. LeVoyageur, I also poked around some of those other very long utube videos. All I can say is...Wow! You be careful out there.

We're a bit off track but I'll also return now to those exciting days of yesteryear... We had an 8-party line. The telephone number started with two letters from a word rather than numbers. Our first three digits were EX9 as in 'EXpress 9'. Other exchanges were EDison or FRanklin...you get the idea. In my shop, I still have an old rotary wall phone (and a few spares for parts just in case)....and a computer on DSL....nice juxtaposition...the phone number written on the phone is still EX9-3701. It will probably be one of the last memories to go as my brain turns to jello with age. But I figure the rotary will prevent any children from being able to use the phone without my permission (instruction). That, and having it mounted 5 feet off the floor, heh, heh. And if they can get past the 16 digit password on the computer, they're welcome to it. Brent, it sounds like your children are getting a really great start in life. We had to put ours in a private pre-school and elementary school to get that kind of start but it paid off. Gold Winger's comment really hit home, though. One day I was driving my son and a bunch of his buddies somewhere and I posed a practical math problem to them - I may have bribed them with ice cream or something. All the boys were in first or second grade and except for those from my son's school, they complained that they didn't have their calculators. My son and his school mate proceeded to explain to the others how you figure out the problem and do it in your head. Guess who the leaders were in the car THAT day? They were the two guys who solved the problem and got the ice cream for the ones on welfare. This kind of early introduction to real understanding, not just going through the motions, is (I think) critical to long-term excellence. But we, the public, are the ones who ultimately set the standards through our demands. And we pretty much get what we pay for.

Captainron14, The presence of an explicit religious element to our political system is obvious. The fact that a born-again Christian minister with modest resources (Huckabee) has gained such a quick lead over a devout Mormon with a huge war chest (Romney) raises all kinds of questions about the role of religion in government and how religion might influence or control our system. Moreover, when Huckabee recently wondered that Mormons consider Jesus and Satan to be brothers, the conflict that had previously been merely a question of what constitutes a Christian now crossed into questions about religious truth. The American people evidently want religion to have a prominent role in our government. If this is true, then the question of that truth is important to all of us and it opens the door to the examination of ALL faiths, not just those who descended from space aliens. Therefore to answer your question, I predict that the next flavor to get the hot seat will depend on who the next political candidate is who claims to be defined by another religious view. So far all we have is Huckabee and Romney. But there's plenty of time for more...the suspense is terrrible....I hope it will last. Trevorum, poor man, you'd like the UUs to get that kind of attention wouldn't you? They're easily among the most educated, intelligent, and thoughtful people of faith. When has any of that been important for matters of faith? So, you see, just the same way that BSA basically shrugged after snubbing them over the religious award, no one else cares either.

Trev, I hope you knew that was tongue-in-cheek. Eolesen, I'm slowly working my way through all this stuff and it's amazing. And I thought Star Wars was fantastic...and THIS is the controlling influence over BSA today? Amazing.

OK, le Voyageur, I'm leaning in your direction on the question of whether Mormons are Christians or not. If your assertions are correct, they're definitely NOT. Space aliens, maybe. Christians, probably not. But now we're getting close to that other thread on ET-LNT although there is an obvious connection. In this case the extraterrestrials most definitely left a trace. But I have to admit that all that stuff about male dominance and eternal sex sounds great although I never would have heard anything like that as a Presbyterian. Well...maybe that male dominance thing. Oops, no, that's Southern Baptist, my bad. If anyone else takes a trip on the UTube, you might want to follow up with some of the other stuff on the author's site: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy0d1HbItOo especially the comments. Not exactly reinforcement of the idea that religion is a unifying force for humanity. In anticipation of a question from Brent, I have to say that I don't consider Joseph Smith to be just a myth. As a matter of fact I'm willing to work on the assumption that he actually existed and said some of the things Mormons claim. As for the gold plates, well, no way to prove a negative. But that goes for almost anything for which the evidence is only some words on paper.

I'd love to see some Pentecostals among the candidates. I might even go to a political rally if they had one. Can you imagine how much fun that would be? Dancing, singing, dodging snakes? And as long as we're mentioning Dwight D and John F, don't forget...when it came to adultery, they did the real deal.

Yeah, I'm aware of the family choice matter for the Eagle COH. And we've had the usual 'wedding reception' celebrations for our guys, several of whom also just made it 'under the wire'. But I still think back to my days as a boy scout and the fact that back then, the award was made by the CO during a regular meeting (church service in my case). It allowed the CO and the other church members an additional opportunity to show support and involvement in the troop. And it didn't put pressure on the family to set up for the 'reception'. I wonder when it was that things changed?

"Our school system uses SmartWeb, so I can see my son's grades from each day before he gets home. I can see every grade he has, as well as the class average. Pretty cool system, which should keep parents from getting any surprises at the end of a semester." Yeah, I like this system too. But it only works for families who 1) care about academics, hat's off to Brent, and 2) families who are fully web connected. But the the 'caring' part is the critical element, I think. And I believe that systems like Smartweb can help support but not substitute for parents who really care about the education of their children and take an active role. The 'big brother' aspect is also interesting though. I wonder if it engenders an acceptance of such 'oversight' or else a resentment to it? Any thoughts?

Scoutldr writes, "SATs are a farce, as far as I'm concerned. They don't get "easier"...but they do "recenter" the grading scale every coupla years, so that the students at the crest of the bell curve get 1000. Those who got 1200 SATs back in the 70s would score off the scale today...it ain't apples and oranges. All it does is compare your performance to those sitting for the test the same year you did, with 1000 being the mean." I wouldn't exactly call the SAT a farce. As you say, the SAT hasn't really gotten easier. And because, as you say, the scores aren't completely comparable, those of us who DO use the scores to judge applicants, look at the percentile rankings in addition to the actual scores. And that ranking CAN be compared across years. This system isn't perfect but it is what we have to work with. Even within the same year it is useful for a pre-med student, for example, from south GA to be able to know how he ranks against a pre-med student from VA, both applying to the same university. Their high school grades might be comparable but if the SAT shows a large discrepancy, then further examination of other aspects of their records is warranted before making a decision. As a matter of fact I've had this discussion with some very concerned students. The differences between schools that teach to the test and those that teach to mastery can sometimes be detected by comparing SAT scores. For those who are ready, there awaits admission and opportunity. For the others, there will be opportunities to supersize the customers' fries. Either way, by the time they take the SAT, it is usually too late to worry. The die was cast long before. But this is, I think, off topic for what Beavah originally intended. I think his point was that politicians often seem to take undue credit for some things. And you know, I'd be willing to give them some undue positive credit if they'd just be willing to take the blame that they actually do deserve at times. But the kind of self-deception that allows them to actually believe they deserve the credit also seems to cause them to reject responsibility. That said, WE are the ones who elect them and this is OUR American political system...love it or leave it.

Wow, thanks for the update, ElyriaLeader. I'll add that info to my database (offline, of course, to prevent you-know-who from cracking into it). Local1400, thanks. When the waterboarding starts I'll be sure to mention lots of you guys prominently in my confessions. Man, we're going to have some fun!

Gold Winger, you took the words right out from under my fingers, thanks. But technically, Gerald Ford preceeded Carter in that status although he was very private about his faith. "...even when we took off it was 6 hours to SLC." OGE, you have my deepest sympathy for that ordeal in ATL, I know it well. But if it really took 6 hours to get from ATL to SLC, someone should have been pedaling faster. I've made that flight for decades and 6 hours in the air will put you out in the Pacific...assuming those are jet engines of course, not props. Flight: Delta 1285 Departs: 12:00 pm from Atlanta, Georgia Arrives: 2:09 pm at Salt Lake City, Utah including two time zones, flight time is only about 4 hours.

Hey! Who are you saying violated ET!? Inquiring minds want to know! You'd better not be pointing a tentacle at me!

gwd, I have to say your lack of knowledge of this important historical event is astonishing. They're not at Roswell but rather at Area 51 which is located in Nevada. Some more facts of which you may not be aware. The Germans recoved a crashed flying saucer in 1939. Some of the superior technology they gained from studying the wreckage allowed them the confidence to attempt world (rather than continental) domination and they almost succeeded. The craft and some of the technology were captured by the Russians and this is why they were so quick to build their own nuclear weapon after WWII. The alien race (which had both an endo- and a vestigial exoskeleton and looked a bit like praying mantises but with just four appendages) later sent a mission to study our nuclear tests but another one of their craft crashed for some reason near Roswell. The alien bodies recovered from that crash were taken to Area 51 and autopsied. This is how we know so much about their anatomy. Some of the technology that allowed us to maintain a technological lead over the Russians came from information from the wreckage from the Roswell crash. And while the Russians were able to get a satellite up first, we also employed this alien knowledge to beat them to the moon. Want to know another supersecret? We went to the moon to find other evidence of this alien race...and we found it. That's the stuff no one will talk about and one reason why the Edward Lee Howard spy case is so under-reported. Howard successfully fled to Russia when he was exposed and we'll never know for sure how much damage he did. But we do know he was a member of MJ-12 a group of 12 top military and scientific personnel assembled by President Truman in 1947 (there's that date again) to begin communications with the alien race. The secret meetings began later and then, in 1964 there was an actual landing of three saucers for a meeting at Holloman Air Force Base in New Mexico. Alien mind control of governments began shortly thereafter. Nixon was especially susceptible but the crucial evidence of this was in a missing 18 minutes of tape (Rosemary was very loyal). Also so began the biological experiments on humans and livestock. In fact the codes for some enzymes supplied by the aliens have been inserted in genetically modified foods, thus explaining the rise in ADD and related syndromes in American but not third world societies. Not to mention the rise of Rap Music. The Teletubbies were no accident. Yep, alien backlash. Wanna know why the CIA just destroyed all the torture tapes? Because the subjects, ahem, weren't human. Duh! But the really good part is...the Roswell aliens weren't dead at first. We managed to extract some viable gametes and other tissues and merged them with human ones in a diabolical experiment - under the influence of mind control - that we're only seeing the beginnings of today. Take a look at the current candidates running for President. See if you can spot the exobiotic chimeras. Also already in both our Congress and our Administration, not to mention the governments of France and Papua New Guinea (go figure). Take a really, really good look at Henry Kissinger. Think about all the political types who have ended up with brain disorders...Reagan, Atwater, Casey, Campbell...yeah, I know. That political view is no brain disorder and no accident either... uh huh. Check out the state governors...uh huh...see what I mean? All that stuff that happens in certain Southern states is beginning to make sense now, isn't it? IYKWIM Yeah, that's right, in these forums we are sooooooo worried about gays and atheists. But the real danger is already here, already insinuating itself into our society, our genome! Poor little Jorge may look like an illegal alien but there's a whole lot more there than meets the eye...about 15% of the time and increasing. And legality is the least of our troubles. Resistance IS futile.

John-in-KC, you just wrote of absolutes and then later you mentioned the importance of compromise. How do you reconcile these two concepts?

Trevorum, your comment has stimulated a question in my mind. We dig up ancient burial grounds, ones that are thousands of years old or older...in the name of archeology - and recent ones in the name of forensics. Is there a certain amount of time before, say, a 'forensics' dig can be called an 'archeological' dig? Or does it merely depend on intent or motive?

Captainron14, I'll try to explain the relevance to scouting. I agree with you that it is a thin connection but the connection is, nevertheless, there. Greg Nelson was originally reponsible for the idea behind this thread when he stated, "I've seen more than one poster claim that Scouting is a Christian activity, and it's no secret that many of the posters here are strong Christians. (As are the large majority of Scouts.)" Admittedly he made this statement back when Rooster7 was waxing eloquently (raving and ranting?) about his faith but Greg's statement is the link to scouting. I was curious about his statement and I asked if Mormons considered themselves to be Christian? My question was relevant because of the prominence of the Mormons in BSA. That was on page 2 of the 'thread of origin'. The remainder of that thread was a fairly clear demonstration (Beavah's claims of brotherhood notwithstanding) that little differences in religious beliefs create very large separations between people. I started this thread because the fractures evident in the previous thread seemed to parallel some of the fractures I'm reading and hearing now that some candidates on the Republican slate have decided to make their personal religious beliefs a political issue. Ok, again I agree the connection is by a thin thread...but the connection is there. And it is interesting to read the various views. The thing is, while everyone seems to have siezed on the Mormon 'thing', and while Romney tried to submerge that as an issue, Huckabee is openly defining himself in terms of his faith and there seems to be little, if any, similar discussion. Or perhaps there just aren't any Mormon forum members up to mounting similar attacks?

Beavah, I agree that people back then acted with most of the same motives as we have today. Uniformitarianism applied to social interactions...I like that. But at some time for any faith, near the origin of that faith, there must have been very few followers. My idea was that with a small population and little time to develop differences, they might have been more unified. I could be wrong but at least it seems to work that way today with churches (there's that uniformitarianism thing again). In our area anyway...the little ones seem to have fewer squabbles. But your conclusion that beliefs MUST be absolute, sigh, is probably correct. By the way, what authority do you cite for your assertion regarding Joseph Smith? As for your last paragraph I'd have to say, Nah! there's just so much personal prejudice embedded in that odd set of theories yeh just described, it's hard to know where to begin.

Yep, I must be dreaming.

Nicely stated, Lisabob. I quite agree.

Calico, if the responses so far are any indication, you have a good argument. I was trying to gage how these political overtures, based on religion, might be received by the public. I know the forum members might not represent a cross-section of the public but the reactions here are probably going to be expressed by many others. And I also wonder if the reliance on one's religion to define the person will ultimately divide the country more deeply than mere politics has already. Here is another way to think about all this that employs your argument, but in reverse: At one time, thousands of years ago, the Jews were more united than they are now. At another time the Christians consisted of a few disciples and their followers. From these more-or-less unified beginnings were spawned a plethora of flavors of nearly all the dominant faiths. Time was one factor. But there were others... IF the process of creating these new faiths involved critical examination of what had been a unified fundamental, there must have been (at that same time) an implicit admission of fallibility of whatever aspect of the fundamental was being modified (rejected). IF there is any hope of a religion-based political identity bringing people together, it seems to me that the same process could work, only in reverse. Perhaps if we take our faith to be less than absolute...if we are willing to consider that other ideas may have equal or greater merit, then perhaps through the same critical examination we can bring people together. OK, perhaps I'm dreaming. But I think it makes sense. It could be that, for whatever reason, we choose to be divided on the basis of faith. And as long as the absolutists are unwilling to yield regarding their faiths, the fractures we have in the country are unlikely to improve. IMHO

Found it, I wasn't looking in the right place: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/06/AR2007120601966.html Trevorum, you can retract your pectorals. I am interested in hearing the different views on this. Krauthammer raises some good questions and thoughts and I think it is always good to be introspective on these things. I did hesitate before asking the question (kind of circular, wasn't it?) but I couldn't think of a better way to ask. Gern makes a good point and it is in line with Krauthammer's opinion. But I am interested in seeing if this insertion of faith into the political process works to unite or to divide...the people. Therefore the question I asked...it will be interesting to read the different views and then watch the eventual outcome.

I remembered asking a question about how LDS members viewed themselves a while back and given the recent Romney speech, I was curious to see if opinions had changed any. Especially considering Krauthammer's op-ed, critical of Huckabee's use of religion to garner votes (sorry, can't find a link...may be too early yet). Anyway, the response in the parent thread was a little equivocal regarding how LDS members view themselves. How much of an issue is this really, for the rest of us? Do Christians think that LDS members are Christian? Why? Why not?

What a delightfully fanciful thread! As the Borg say, "resistance is futile..." All significant issues of ethics or morality regarding our 'footprint' on extraterrestrial places have been addressed long ago in the "historical documents" - otherwise known as the original Star Trek series. The "Prime Directive", for example, is undoubtedly a universal standard for space alien interactions and as Gern noted, the absence of such footprints on earth is evidence that visitors to this planet also follow that standard of ethical behavior. We even completely missed the great Rapture of 1996! OK, I've been to Roswell and yes, I used to know people around here who were really nice people but they nevertheless insisted on wearing aluminum foil on their heads to prevent being influenced by the 'beams' that only they seemed to be able to see (we referred to them as 'the beamers'). But the only evidence of footprints I know of on this planet are the meteor craters and some (still unexplained) lakes...see the link: http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/cbaymenu.html click on the image for a better view. But the historical documents and our actual past behavior both indicate that we are going to litter space with all kinds of junk. Personally, I dread the prospect of sending people to Mars. All I can see in this endeavor is dead bodies scattered among the other 'terra debris'. I'd much rather see less-expensive robots take those falls.

Because things seem to be getting personal on several fronts, I want to state that I have never used the 'ignore' button nor will I. I consider that action to be the strongest form of statement of contempt for the targeted individual and, as such, represents an unfriendly (and unscoutlike) act. The ignore button also deprives the reader of even the smallest shred of information that might be contained in a post, and which could be useful. I'd rather just glean the good stuff and shrug off the rest.

Here in the South, the GED is almost unheard of. Most all of the children go to school and nearly all who enter high school successfully complete it. And of those, thanks to the lottery, most also complete college. Oops, I was dreaming. As Willie Wonka says, "scratch that, reverse it.";) Except the lottery part which has resulted in some high school grade inflation. And then we (at the college level) get the dirty work of weeding out those who really are unprepared. Oh well, it's the American education system....love it or leave it.