packsaddle

I liked the humor too. And he'd be a breath of fresh air compared to the ignoramuses we have as governors here in the South.

Kansas is good. Mitchell, SD is also good, maybe even Sturgis. Maybe near an airline hub like SLC. Actually, that's a great idea. Fly to SLC and then bus to Jackson, WY or better yet, out in the Salt Lake Desert. Or maybe the Phoenix area. If they wanted to do it at an Army base, I'd love to see it at Ft. Benning...that would be convenient to Atlanta - or one of the bases in Texas, convenient to several major airports. Yes, the Houston area - in the summer - a bunch of overweight people camping outdoors - sweatin' to the oldies....yeah!

Regarding legality, perhaps he meant 'arbitary' but then that would also largely be a point of view. I remind everyone that discrimination is perfectly natural and that the most basic kind of discrimination is that of 'natural selection' in which defects and disadvantages in individuals composing populations are 'discriminated against', thus giving the surviving populations greater fitness. The people responsible for BSA's policies may in fact have this as their motive for all I know...."the best kind of citizens..." It almost certainly underpins many of the religious conflicts throughout history.

Contrary to what my old Presbyterian minister used to preach, demons are myths too.

It's pretty much an old standby in these parts. I avoid it because I know toxicologists who do work on the effects of heating plastics in contact with food. I'm probably being overly cautious. But I'm told they taste great, same as a regular omelet only shaped weird. Edited Part: DUH! So now I've read the link and see that it's about the stuff I mentioned. Yes, if you heat plastic (different ones respond differently) they either decompose (depolymerize) or they release plasticizers, or both. These are being investigated for toxicity, as terratogens, carcinogens, and as endocrine mimics (guys developing really nice sets of luscious breasts...or worse). Anyway, I'm still a fan of real omelets cooked on iron skillets - or maybe teflon which isn't as bad as something like a Ziploc.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

On the other hand, if I watch carefully, there's a good chance I may be able to add you to the list....

I know the place very well. It's actually one of the areas where I've watched fools do stupid things. That state park is not on a river, it's on Lake Hartwell. In order to get to a 'river' you'll have to put in below the dam. The dam doesn't operate very often (thanks to the drought) and if it's not operating you'll get to have fun carrying the canoes over big slippery boulders and bedrock. However, if the dam IS operating you'll have maybe 30 seconds of fun in what's left of the Savannah River before you arrive in....the next lake, Richard B. Russell Lake. Then you can paddle maybe down to the 181 or maybe 184/368 bridge to take out. Or you can go a few miles farther down to Lake Russell State Park, also on the GA side (BTW, it's a really nice, under-used state park). Folks, most of our fears can be set aside. Assuming they manage to even get into the canoes without tipping over, they'll be on flat water almost the whole time. One word of caution, even in warm weather, you must be prepared for hypothermia. Even in the summer the water from that dam comes off the bottom of Lake Hartwell and it is cold enough to support a trout fishery. A dunking will be...invigorating. Another word of caution, if you decide to keep the canoes on Lake Hartwell, be very careful. That lake, on nice days, is loaded with idiots who are themselves...loaded. Fat, bloated rednecks in low-slung, metal-flaked, overpowered boats are well-known for example, accidentally cutting catamarans in half, or running right over smaller craft...and then keeping on going because they were too far into the drunken haze to notice. BUT, it's gratifying to know that in THIS country, they can do that until they're 40 years old and if their daddy has good connections, they'll still have a chance to become president. So I advise you to stay close to the shores, lest you mess up the chances for some future presidential candidate.

"What's wrong with thinking gods are myths?" It depends on which ones you pick on. Heh, heh, I got away with it in these forums a while back. You just have to pick on the right ones. There just wasn't anyone around (other than Brent) who wanted to defend Satan when I declared him to be myth.

I ________ promise to do my best To do my duty to God and my country, To help other people, and To obey the Law of the Pack. It looks spelled out to me. BSA even elaborated, "To do my duty to God: This phrase means to remember to thank God for good friends, good health, our well-being, our family, and all others who love and help us. Going to worship services is another way of doing our duty to God. We should respect other people's religious beliefs even if they are different from our own." Merlyn's right. Although your 'local option' approach may not recognize this, BSA has established itself as a religious organization.

I agree with Ed. OK, now you can all pick youselves up off the floor. Beavah, I'd agree with your analogy to high school graduation. But I'm just not sure anyone is making parents and family host the eagle COH, around here the families seem to WANT to do it. The troop is ready and willing to do it if that's what the boy wants but in the past the families have asked to be allowed to take the lead. And we certainly aren't going to deny that request. So it could just be a matter of perception. Or maybe things are different somewhere else.

I guess I'm sensitized to outings involving water because I've had a couple of friends and a relative killed on rivers at different times. And I spent most of my career on rivers and lakes watching fools do stupid things...and mostly surviving. Mostly. Your basic plan, if that really is all there is to it, seems to indicate a death wish. But you're young and haven't reproduced yet so there is time for natural selection to act and cleanse us of your genome. You still haven't mentioned which river or described the kind of stream it will be. You haven't mentioned any ability to 'read' the water - and in flowing water you will need to know more than "J" and "Draw" strokes...you'll need to know "sweeps", "ferries", "sculling", "pry strokes", "ruddering" (bow and stern), and more. You haven't mentioned protective gear or flotation. You haven't mentioned a safety line or spare paddles. You haven't mentioned emergency equipment. Or how to pack your way out when you get stranded after dark. This isn't merely hiking off trail - water is much less caring than a predator, it is far more powerful when it is moving, and you most definitely will not live if it clutches you for long. It loves to eat the arrogant. Moreover, whitewater is quite different from a lazy meandering river...and that lazy river can be just as deadly, just for different reasons. So my advice....get serious first and then make some reasonable plans and preparations.

Beavah, "Da question for me is when would I not go off-trail?" Answer: when you're in a canoe or kayak on a whitewater stream and would rather not have a really, REALLY bumpy ride.

Gold Winger, Yes I've done a bit. I like to go alone and bad weather is a plus but not necessary. Here in the southern Appalachians it's hard to find many places so I prefer the West. I love the Cascades especially the Southern Cascades. Most of the time no one knows my plans (I make them up on the fly) or even where I am. I'm old, heavily insured, will written, and won't be missed much. And a violent anonymous death is far preferable to the ones I've witnessed so far. But Yellowstone and the nearby Beartooths are great, partly because of the mountains and partly because of the animals...and the trail I mentioned is one of my favorites. What am I saying, they're all favorites. But I've done everything I described and more, including great grey owls, peregrine falcons, eagles, big horn sheep, rocky mountain goats really up close, and yes, the bears, even grizzlies. However, before you get to that trailhead on the road from the NE entrance if you stop and take the trail up to Trout Lake and then keep on going off trail up the mountain, you can find everything much closer to the highway. A couple of years ago I found a kill and the bear wallow less than a mile from Trout Lake. So I kept going up the hill and perched myself on an outcrop to watch through the binoculars. The kill stayed quiet but way down in the valley I could see tourists parking and walking around the parking area. Mostly peeing in the grass or dumping trash. A few would walk up to Trout Lake and then quickly back down to the warmth of their cars. But just above the forest edge above the lake I could also see a bear watching the tourists. Black bear, probably hoping for some of that garbage or maybe an infant (..the dingos got my baby..."). From Specimen Ridge, I can watch, way across the valley to the other side, the tourists in their giganticly monstrous motor homes with their tripds and spotting scopes, hoping to spot the wolves on a kill. They'll park and squat on about an acre with their vehicle and just sit there as if watching television. They'll maybe walk 50 feet and probably think they've had an experience. But I CAN see the wolves just down the hill a bit, with their cubs on what's left of an elk calf - they don't last long. The wind will be whistling, cold, past my face. I'll be wet from snow and I know I need to get moving to stay warm. The air will be cold and dry and the only sounds I hear are the trees clawing at the sky and the wolves finishing their feast. Then I'll turn to head into the woods to see what I can find. And I'll look across at those tourists one last time, making sure not to make eye contact...I wouldn't want to, you know, become one of them.

Here's my advice: Head to Yellowstone in, say, early May. Enter the NE entrance and drive down the Lamar Valley until find the parking area for the Specimen Ridge trailhead. Head up that trail until you crest the ridge - it'll be a nice stroll. Once you're over the top, you can divert off trail to your left pretty much anywhere. From the ridge you'll be able to spot good clear areas to go through and you won't do any more damage than the animals around you. Once you get back down out of the snow and into the forest on this south-facing area, take the time to check the bases of trees for owl splatters. If you see their tell-tale whitewash and you're lucky, you might spot one of the great greys around there. I once found a nest. Spectacular. Keep your compass safe, you'll need it. Now keep trudging along. The going is easy because you don't have to fight through undergrowth or small trees. You can't get lost...all you have to do is go back to the top to find the trail again. The whole area is spectacular so you'll want to make sure you have appropriate music from your ipod coming through the ear buds to enhance the sensation. I prefer classical. You'll see numerous animal paths to take. You won't do any more damage than an elk, which you might see...cows anyway, with newly born calves. You might hear the wolves, they'll be feasting on elk and bison babies. Bears too. A cow with a calf might get too close to the forest line and a bear might dart out and take the calf in about one second. Then drag the crying animal into the woods to show it the meaning of fate. You also might want to make sure you have little bells on your ankles to let bears know where you are. Also, and bear spray. Forget regular pepper spray, it would only piss them off. And the real bear spray is expensive but it's good. Don't even try the spray to check it...it's so powerful that a slight whiff will put you in agony. Now if you happen on an old carcass with scraps of hide and bones with only a bit of flesh left on them, look carefully around you. If you're lucky you'll find the spot in the grass and needles where the bear was bedded down to guard the kill. Feel it to see if it's still warm. Don't worry, you'd be dead already if he was there. I have often been amazed at how many generations of skeletal remains there are in this area. The whole place is a killing ground. Check out the area to see if you can find his scat. The scat will tell you whether it was a black bear or a grizzly. Both will have fur in them but the black bear will have berry seeds. The grizzly scat will contain fur, bits of bone, and occasionally little bells. Heh, heh, I just love that last part. Have a good hike.

A very long time ago my friend, who at the time lived in a mobile home, left his dog outside in a kennel while he was at work during the day. One day a thunderstorm frightened the dog so much that it broke the latch on the gate, and then chewed its way into the mobile home, right through the wall, one layer of aluminum siding, the insulation, and then a layer of paneling. My friend came home and the dog greeted him at the door, tail wagging. Less than a year later, this happened again. My friend was a slow learner.

Lisa, anyone, I read the proposed legislation and didn't notice anything about $20 going back to BSA. Did I miss this? I'll go back and read it again.

I think OGE was noting another issue which scouts and scouters could support through their numbers. At least I saw that connection. Regarding dam reconstruction, I think the expense was the real problem in OGE's example. My suggestion to remove the dam is a popular idea around the country now. These small dams really do have a large impact on the ecosystem and they have little or no hydropower potential. The idea that a small dam could supply the camp with its electricity may be sound but I would have to see a good engineering analysis of that potential. I know of similar demo projects in which streams have been completely altered at significant expense...to produce less than 100 watts continuous power. I could make a better pitch for a solar installation in each of those cases. Regarding the downstream ecosystems, dams inevitably have a detrimental effect downstream. This is unavoidable. I would argue that downstream ecosystem reconstruction requires dam removal. OGE has, I think, noted the essential aspect of this. Property available for sale in the Poconos, close to the financial heart of the world....I predict that money will speak loudly.

Drain the lake, blow the dam, and restore the stream ecosystem. The camp can build a swimming pool. Or else, sell the camp for profit ("...it's all about money"). Otherwise be a responsible member of society and pay for the necessary modifications, sharing the cost with the other private beneficiaries if possible.

That government agency is required by law to inspect all dams, public and private, in order to protect the public. Sort of like the inspectors who grade restaurants or food and drugs, or construction for code violations. Why does everyone want a 'free' ride at public expense? Why can't people and private entities take responsibility for themselves? I read the house bill to see the terms of the legislation. As long as the state doesn't subsidize BSA, and as long as the state makes this form of 'speech' available to ALL private organizations (including the KKK, for example), this particular plate seems OK.

Someone fronted the money to build the dam in the first place. Who was it? They evidently failed the design part of the project or else cut corners, so now...why should the public pay for that mistake? It is private property. Private funds should be used for the repairs. Period.

Gern, I went to Lambert's web site and found out he has the wrong legislation numberlisted for this. Here's the correct number in case anyone wants to read it: HB08-1151. And here's the link: http://www.leg.state.co.us/clics/clics2008a/csl.nsf/fsbillcont/8A421F7F130D0D7E8725737C007A38FF?Open&file=1151_ren.pdf Gold Winger, I think you misjudge the gay community. They are very welcoming to open-minded people and I think they would be delighted to have a troop in uniform at one of their parades. I'm liking the idea more and more, AAMOF.

Me, I think of it as 'tickling the tail of the dragon'. OK, instead maybe the boys just decide to go en masse and in uniform to support legislation in support of gay rights. I think that's exactly what the opening activity describes (except for that gay rights part).

So....I guess it will be OK for the boys in this unit to march as a unit, in uniform, in the next Gay Pride parade. I'm OK with that, it's only an idea after all.

I'm trying to understand the concern. I can see a problem if anyone interprets the council message in way that causes some form of coercion to attend. On the other hand, if the boys decide for themselves to attend I see no problem. I guess that for me the question is whether anyone feels pressured to attend or not. A similar situation could arise for me. There is abundant legislation that can affect me and my students. And I am free to announce that 'such-and-such' legislation is pending, or that 'such-and-such' votes are going to occur. However, if I make any kind of statement that leads even one student to believe his participation will affect any part of his academic standing, I will have crossed that ethical line.

Stevejb, "The BSA has not changed its policies during the last 90 plus years, but today's radicals are attempting to change this country to meet its own agenda, and thus change the very nature of what makes our society great." I can't speak to all of BSA policy over the last 90 plus years but I CAN say with great certainty that just a few years ago, the application I signed said nothing about the DRP, etc. There was (and still is) no mention of BSA's policy towards gays. I suggest that there have been some important policy changes over the last 90 plus years.