packsaddle

"hey pack, where does that leave us UU/Pagans?" Heh, heh, I'm going to use my channeling skills [that I acquired by purchasing a 15-minute instructional video from the scientologists] and let you know the answer from Rooster7's vantage on the 'other side' of his micro-rapture - starting the Theremin music: We..can..expect warmer..climes..in our..future..not..from..global...warming... ;)Not that either of us is worried about it...

Dan, curiosity is about to kill me again, what's the atheist symbol?

Rescinded, wow! Looks like the UUs are back to Wiccan status with BSA. Hey, all you pagans need to move back to the end of the line, UUs still have dibs on this one....

Here's confirmation on the Detroit Area Council's web site: http://www.dacbsa.org/CC_RR/RR-home.htm Hey! it's on the web, it MUST exist after all! Just scroll down to the first line of the first paragraph. AND I DID find it on the P.R.A.Y. site. Here's the actual newletter Fred referred to: http://www.tac-bsa.org/pray_news_june05.pdf

In the original thread from which this one was spun...a long, long, time ago in a galaxy far, far, away... fgoodwin stated in the next-to-last message: "Just received my 1Q05 newsletter from P.R.A.Y., and it says BSA has just approved "a Unitarian" religious emblems program: =================== Updates on Religious Emblems A Unitarian program has been approved by BSA Religious Relationships. For more information, contact the Unitarian Universalist Scouting Organization, 847 Washington Street, Holliston, MA 01746 or call 508-429-7700. " Now I venture a guess that unless Fred was lying about his 1Q05 newsletter from P.R.A.Y. (and I think Fred is honest), there IS something in print that confirms Trevorum's statement. It may not be available online though...and we all KNOW that if it doesn't exist on the internet, it can't possible be so.

Hi Trevorum, OK, if this is the case, what is the deal with the Wiccans? Why would BSA require an official national or international orgnaization from them and not others? I can understand Dan's frustration. On one hand the Wiccans are trying to be included and are being rebuffed. On the other hand, BSA actively excluded the official UUA award because of a disagreement on freedom of speech...and then embraced an award created by an unofficial subset of the same faith. Unless there's something else going on here, I see no evidence to reject Dan's accusation of BSA hypocrisy.

Give it up. Not worth the time it takes to get a clear answer and the answer is mostly likely going to be negative. I guess I'm kind of pessimistic on this. But in the time it takes to do all that, I can be out in the real world making a whole lot more money, and making a greater contribution to society, than I'll save by weaseling out some flimsy tax deduction.

If anyone wants to revisit the 'renegade';) UU religious award, here's the link: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=88667 According to Trevorum, BSA has indeed approved the award by the UUSO (an independent group of scouters, 'renegades', NOT the UUA) to be worn on the uniform. Unless there has been a change since that time, this supports Dan's argument. (This message has been edited by packsaddle)

buffaljoe, I'll second what NeilLup wrote and add that you can expand on that by reading many of the messages by Kudu. You can learn even more at: http://www.bpscouting.org/ Trevorum, I agree and Calico, I too am glad you stuck with it and didn't let the turkeys get you down. Trevorum, your comments about the Bible belt are valid. This unit has avoided problems by having a unofficial unit eagle coordinator - me. I make sure that the records are correct, that the boys have up-to-date information and documents, and I get to pick the members of the EBOR. I maintain a list of potential board candidates who I know are knowledgeable of the scouting program (many are retired leaders), are willing and interested, and who have no 'agendas' to promote. Gonzo1, you'd have had no problem in our unit, nor would you have had to explain yourself to a skeptic. (hope you've managed to stay dry out there) The thing about 'reverent' is that while we all can directly observe and participate in knots, fires, cooking, equipment, etc., while we can experience qualities such as trustworthyness or loyalty in day-to-day interactions, there is only ONE person who can really know what is in a boy's heart or mind regarding matters of faith...that ONE person is the boy himself. If the boy says he meets the 'reverent' qualification, there is no other human being who is a 'higher power' - qualified to judge what is in the boy's mind or heart - much less...qualified to fail that boy for this reason...I think there is a verse about casting stones? Edited part: I guess I was still typing...buffalojoe, BSA has attained 'private club' status and because of that, BSA is legally allowed to discriminate on whatever basis it likes. I suspect that a suit would be fruitless, but I wish you success with the top brass. Who knows, maybe you'll open some eyes after all.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

'absentia'...it could be worse. Early on, I witnessed one of the most disastrous district PWDs ever. One pack had quite a number of cars that had had quite a bit of parental investment, wink, wink. Many of those boys were allowing others to run their cars in absentia. The district rules had nothing against it so I just did the usual weigh-in stuff and then stood back to watch. The district guy had all the competing cars quarantined on the floor near one end of the room...but near the bleachers of the school gymn where we did the competitions. I watched as the boys who were running the cars in absentia: 1) forgot whose belonged to who, 2) ran at least one of them for multiple boys (disqualification), and then 3) in the end, they were so rambunctious that they accidentally stepped on three of the cars, completely crushing them. I was soooooo glad I wasn't in charge. I packed up my balance and like the senate after the anthrax mailing, I headed for the hills.

Hello mkeduff, and welcome to the forums. I guess no one noticed your question so here's my humble opinion. Technically, everything you need for the project can be put in the workbook itself without creating a separate album. Many boys create a separate album of extensive photos and all of the notes and plans...as something for their own records and to display (hopefully) at the eagle court of honor. The boards of review enjoy looking through these 'scarpbooks' but they tend to focus on the official documents (those being the workbook and application for rank). If you are certain you have all your dates and details correct and complete, then you can do most anything you want with the 'scrapbook'.

In my courses this topic comes up once every semester. I have always enjoyed this video. Now just imagine if we had this setup for a cub scout pack. Just imagine:

ScoutingAgain, I'll stand with you on that one and defend the scout from the scouter's attack. This kind of thing is destructive both to the boy and to the organization. Ed, yeah I know, you're a good-natured guy and I was just messin' with you, no offence intended. OGE, while I consider it to be myth, the concept can be applied liberally to lots of places or situations...even changing according to changing conditions. My thoughts are turning to Rooster7 who seemed to think I (and maybe lots of others) was headed in that direction. Of course that was before ol' Rooster was taken by a micro-rapture or something.

"...would a legitimate question to a candidate be, "Are you gay?" Or would that be too personal?" Yes, too personal. If I was asked that question I might be rude, possibly provocative, suggesting that you do something anatomically impossible without injury. Or I might play along, toying with you to see how far you'd take this idiotic question. Here's the thing. He signed the membership form. That's that. If you think he's a liar, then you should say so and should have at that time. If you had some reason not to allow him in, that was the time to raise the issue. But if you have nothing more than a need to poke your nose into the private sexuality of other persons, I'd advise you BUTT OUT. I can't imagine what that question might do to a boy. Do you really think you'd get an honest answer anyway, if he was gay? After a boy has been through years of peer pressure regarding 'gayness'? Does the implicit BSA policy of DADT mean anything to you? Get real. Or to put it the way Jeff Foxworthy might put it, he might just as well ask in response, "Do I look stupid?" ED...ited part: Ed, I just figured out that reference to icebergs. You do know that hell is a myth, right?(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

According to the Reagan administration, the tomato derivative catsup (ketchup, whatever) was a vegetable and ketchup (catsup, whatever) met the school dietary requirement for vegetables. It's almost as if James Watt was in charge of the Department of Education and HEW, as well as Interior. I half expected jelly beans to qualify as well (beans, you know).

"The questions in the EBOR are only intended to find that the scout is not ready to be an Eagle." If that is the intent of the questions then I have been under a misconception for a long time. I thought the process was intended to be a 'review', not an inquisition.

Hi Calico, a very long time ago (back when the family was still called the Cruiciferae) I earned one of my degrees in botany. I guess I owe this to the curse of a very long memory for scientific names (mostly for the cryptogams - you'll understand). But I still enjoy botanizing and grossing out the boys when I explain, for example (heh, heh), that the fruits they enjoy are reproductive organs, specifically ripened ovaries, and in some cases placenta tissue. Then I bite into a really juicy, ripe tomato and squirt placenta grossness all over the place. Cheap thrills!

OGE, yeah I think I remember that case. If Lambert had told BSA that his beliefs were personal and then refused to discuss his beliefs, do you think he'd have been dumped? Answer: NO. DADT again. What do you think would be the harm if BSA kept its nose out of personal beliefs? If 'rock worship' is acceptable (and according to BSA it is), then how low are YOU willing to place the bar for the so-called 'higher power'? Looks more like a game of limbo (no relation to the theological version) to me. Edited part: name correction: Darrell Lambert, by the way, is still an Eagle Scout. Just no longer a member. I find it interesting that BSA's view of a belief system is so superficial that they gave him a week or so to 'convert'. What this really meant was that if Darrell was willing to lie about his beliefs, BSA would be OK with that and he could stay. So much for profound 'reverence' in BSA.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

OGE, I can identify scouts and scouters who express 'reverence' towards junk food (maybe too much reverence ) but the first post was with regard to a situation, "...ask the scout if he believes in a god?" I see a difference between this question and one regarding reverence. Edited to add: Besides, who are you to decide whether or not the boy (or his parents) thinks the question is intrusive?(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

My vote is for Zappa's kids, Moon Unit and Dweezil.

You have lots of places in NE Ga for this activity. Take a look at Tallulah Gorge. Then the Amicalola Falls area. Do they allow this on Stone Mountain? Call the Rainey Mountain Scout Camp and see what they advise. Call the Chattahoochee National Forest offices. Or you can go a short distance further over to the Chattanooga area or into NC and find abundant places to die.

MacyM, Please congratulate your new eagle. I hope he will understand that many people struggle with this and similar questions in life. Sometimes we actually arrive at an answer. I am the eagle coordinator for this unit. I am also an old eagle and I was never asked a question like this at any of my reviews when I was a scout. Personally, I consider the question out of bounds and an intrusion on my privacy. As an adult I sometimes dismiss this question bluntly enough that no one has ever asked twice. If a boy feels the same way I am sympathetic. But a boy may not have the experience or skills to parry such an intrusive question, or the position - especially when standing alone and vulnerable as a boy in front of a group of adult examiners who wield the power to fail him. As eagle coordinator, I meet with each eagle candidate many times from the time he attains life to the time he is ready for the eagle BOR. Sometime during the process, and sometimes on several occasions, I will counsel the boy about the BOR. If they are exceedingly nervous or frightened by the prospect of this examination, I try to prepare them by listing some types of questions or topics that might be covered, especially those most difficult to answer. I try to give the boys time to think about things so they don't stumble around verbally during the BOR. (this also allows the BOR to be a bit shorter;)) One of the topics that inevitably comes up is the 'god' thing. I already know the background of each boy so, if needed, I work with him on several scenarios, one of which is the direct question about which you are concerned. I guess that among the boys in this unit there are maybe six or seven different gods wandering around in their minds and for some there is just a hazy cloud of uncertainty. I am very sympathetic to this and my wish is for people who are not their parents to BUTT OUT! I inform each boy that the individuals at the BOR are there in his best interest and they are allowed to ask almost anything. I also inform him that he doesn't know everything and it's ok to respond that he's still wondering or thinking about certain topics if he doesn't know the answer very well. When it comes to the direct question about his religious beliefs I inform the boy that he also has the right, if he chooses, to repectfully inform the board that he considers that to be a personal aspect of his life that he does not discuss. I also attend (but as a leader not allowed to participate in) the eagle BOR. If this question arises I wait for the boy to indicate his response. If he's unable to answer the question, I'm prepared to speak, offering a clarifying question to help the boy. So far this has never been necessary. One boy responded by asking the board to identify the constructive outcome of any answer he could give. He passed. The board's response to this particular answer was mostly surprise. I informed him afterward that I hadn't recommended the 'smart ass' approach because I knew from experience that it could backfire. But that it had brought a smile to me. He'll make good attorney someday.

Wow, I had no idea. So, if one of these imaginary (phoney?) COs gets sued for an injury or death or something, what are the liability issues, compared to a real CO with its own insurance, etc?

NC, I am curious about your comparison (broccoli vs cauliflower). Did you craft that comparison carefully, knowing that they are the same species? And did you therefore embed a botanical subtlety that I (maybe others) need you to explain?

So, was he also a championship wrestler?