packsaddle

I completely agree, Eamonn. I think it is the worst fear for any caring parent and I suspect worrying about my children will remain there for me until I die. The speed related crashes you note are things I've noticed throughout my life. I wish I had the answer for how to impress on our youth, the importance of being careful. I don't. So I worry along with you.

Very sad. I've never heard of it. What a tragic loss.

BadenP, If I want to hear those very same arguments regarding slavery, I merely need to walk three houses down. I must say that I have very much enjoyed the exchange. I think that Rooster7 and Beavah both share passion for their faith and that they both have expressed themselves eloquently. I do observe that the exchange, between two well-studied devout believers in the same faith, differ on a rather basic question...the inherent goodness or not, of man. Beavah is correct, Rooster7 is unlikely to yield in his interpretation. I suggest that Beavah is probably of equal resistance in his view. I think that both will agree, however, that newborns are not automatically endowed with the knowledge and understanding of religious faith and of Christian scripture, in particular. These things must be taught to them and learned by them. I wonder what the divergent paths were that led these two devout believers in the same faith to opposite conclusions. Nevertheless, that we cannot find the common ground even for something like this is hardly evidence for religion as a unifying concept. Thanks for the demo.

Thank you Terry, for taking the time to address our concerns. I appreciate your thoughtful and measured response and suggestions.

Pack212Scouter, for six years the so-called 'conservative' political view held every branch of the US Government. Yet these things that so many seem to revile remained almost unaltered. The 'interpretations' that you and others disagree with have not been overturned. They really weren't even seriously challenged. Why? If these things are so wrong, why haven't those who feel that way stepped up to work for change? This simply is the way America is today. Anyone who doesn't agree with this status is free to work for change. This is the way it works in America and one of the reasons we're the greatest nation on earth. When so-called 'conservatives' had six years of perfect opportunity to make these changes, why didn't they? During the days of Vietnam protest, I often heard and read the words, "America, Love it or leave it." I wonder how many of the persons who applied those words then, would be willing to apply them now?

"So for an advocacy firm, there's little downside to pursuin' a case of interest. To da public entity, there's almost nothin' but downside. That's why most don't fight, eh? Hard to tell your voters yeh had to cut half the fire department in order to defend the Christmas Tree, even if you prevailed." And this is so easily avoided. Governments merely need to stop breaking the law.

Hey, welcome back NJCubScouter! Long time, no read (or something like that). We've missed you and that incredibly good sense of humor!

ASM915, I wear the 'class A' everything, every day, all day. Like I've said before, I've always liked the uniform. As for the undies, wouldn't YOU like to know....hee,hee,hee.

SR540Beaver, a Hannity.com forum? I couldn't be sorrier for you if I found you passed out drunk, face down in a toilet in the Port Authority bus terminal. Anyone know where that one comes from? OGE, that's a challenge! Perhaps you're right, Beav. But I remember how it was before the censors were created for this forum - we had ZERO rules other than the admonition you described. I'm a first amendment kind of guy. The forum back then was just fine with me. Edited part: Oops, too many large toothy rodents around here to keep track of them all....(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Beavah, I do agree with you on this. It's the question of what's proper that is the sticking point, and who decides it. I mentioned that story (I have resisted telling it for a long time) in order to note that the man of God I mentioned will say that HIS interpretation, HIS view, is superior to yours, and mine, with regard to religion, Christianity, or God. And while I support your desire to do good through your understanding of your faith, the 'evidence' to reject the hypothesis that his view, his interpretation, is of equal merit to yours just doesn't exist, except in the form of personal opinions, again based on personal interpretations. I am not trying to attack Christianity, but rather the tendency to use any belief system as a source of ABSOLUTE knowledge. Edited part: added some stuff for clarity.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

I'm glad you personally interpret scripture the way you do, Beavah. In more recent times, you must agree that other people employed religion (and the Bible, in particular) to justify slavery in the South. There are just too many examples. In even more recent times it was employed to justify racial segregation - I saw it myself in the Presbyterian Church as well as in public schools. I've heard the KKK employ it to promote their brand of hatred. Three houses down from mine is one of the houses in the area that flies the confederate flag - on the mast ABOVE the American flag. It is the home of the minister for one of the local fundamentalist churches. He adopted an infant. She was black. As she matured, the menial tasks that were heaped on her caused her to become rebellious. He openly expressed his attitude toward her as a servant, not a daughter. Social services has no leverage as long as there is no clear abuse. As she grew she became a pretty, bright, young black woman. I saw the anger, resentment, and hatred this man of God had toward her but he was very guarded and I never came close enough to see much else. Nevertheless this young woman was in ROTC in high school and seemed on the way to making a life for herself. To me she was always polite and seemed very bright. She was doing well in school. The man of God kicked her out of the house during her senior year. She reacted badly and is now living a wretched life...I'll let your imagination run with this one. Early on, she and my daughter were friends. My daughter came home with the stories of how the girl was treated. The man of God was open about his use of Biblical authority to do these things, open about concepts such as 'mud races' and worse. His first amendment religious right. At least she's free from him now.

Whether dictated by a piece of paper, or determined through reasoning, it is good for society when individuals conduct their lives in a manner that increases inclusive fitness.

"Go rent Lord of the Flies." Proof through comparison to a movie. I'm in awe. "Christianity states that newborns have "original sin."" Indeed you are correct, acco40. I find the view disgusting and reprehensible. If there was such a mythical thing as satan, it would embrace that view.

And that cross-section idea fails if the heavy-handed moderator can trump all the rest. Acco40, you claim that the reason you were asked to moderate was to get a cross section of styles & opinions and I am OK with that...diversity is good. But how does that cross section of styles & opinions become applied, especially if any one of you can do anything you want? Where is the diversity, the cross section of styles & opinions? It is more an assemblage of individuals, each with his own absolute power with oversight neither as individuals nor as a group. Acco40, I'm glad that it is so difficult to offend you. But that fact is irrelevant to my point. The fact that hops_scout over-ruled you IS relevant. I ask, did he consult with you before he did it? If not, do you think it was a display of courtesy? Edited for clarity.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

That's the one. Acco40 mentioned that his 'moderator' finger was twitching, or something to that effect, nope it was 'itchy', but he left the exchange intact. Then hops_scout deleted both and moderated Acco40's message to include the words, "Sorry acco, mine itched a little too much.. Hops" I could almost hear the snickering in the background. That was in the topic, "The DRP debate club, Round WHAT??" and the first message (now deleted) had been posted on Wednesday, 7/9/2008: 6:48:35 PM. Edited for clarity.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

That's it, go ahead and have your fun. Just remember....I'm watching. Seriously, if any moderator feels inclined to protect me from bad-name-calling, please don't. As Franklin said, I don't give a farthing. And if you moderators are inclined to protect everyone else from what someone may say about me, at least please have the courtesy to PM the offending text, unaltered, to ME. FWIW, I noted that in another forum, one moderator, having given warning but leaving the offending messages untouched, was then 'one-upped' by another moderator who deleted those two posts. This practice is discourteous to the other moderators, not to mention the forum and it smacks of double- (perhaps poly-) jeopardy. It essentially places all the moderators in competition with each other to be as heavy-handed as the next guy or else get over-ruled by a moderator who thinks HIS is the 'heaviest'. In effect, it eliminates all judgements by all moderators except the last one whose judgement is harshest. If you guys don't work something out better than that, then the system of moderation is going to be more idiotic than it is already. Edited Part: drat thsoe tpyos(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

...or influence over the present for that matter. The question of goodness or badness is simply a point of view. From my point of view, I see only goodness in a newborn. Anything bad is usually applied later from outside the person. I see no evidence of inherent badness.

Been there, done that. I think this is OK as a 'stop-gap' measure only. If, in the meantime, the CO and committee return to doing 'their jobs' then it is good to keep things alive during a period of transition. However, this is ultimately an unsustainable situation and the unit will not survive, or if it does, it will be not be as good for the boys as it could be with the program delivered properly.

"We are all animals and thus we wish to procreate with the fittest and we wish to survive." vol_scouter, Actually, fitness is determined after the fact by measuring the success of perpetuating genetic traits. There is no way to determine this a priori and thus while some of us might THINK we're selecting fit mates, this is largely an erroneous (but delightful) illusion. And usually it is that delight that is so compelling, not some calculated judgement on fitness. And this question about the DRP is not an attempt to remove the 12th point. There is no other part of the scout law that gets this kind of attention in the application process. There is no Declaration of Thrifty Principle, for example. Absent the DRP, everything would merely return to the way it was before and the 12th point would still be there.

Eamonn, I confess...I actually LIKE those do-it-yourself band pizzas and the cases of citrus in the winter. I actually miss those fund-raisers. Popcorn on the other hand....the smell just reminds me of animal urine. Yech. I really hate popcorn, regardless of price.

In one sense I think Bob White is correct, although I strongly sympathize with Gern's and LisaBob's observations. This unit had a similar situation and, as Bob White noted, it arose from the leadership gradually distancing the unit from the CO (and from some negative help from a couple of DEs, another story). This was not some sinister plot on the part of the unit leaders but rather some well-meaning leaders trying to take some of the load off the church. By doing so, the leaders took on more responsibilities than they could handle well and they also sent a message to the CO - "we don't need you", to which the CO's silence responded, "same to you, buddy". It nearly killed the unit. And after I 'called the question' so-to-speak, by bringing the question of CO responsibilities directly into the face of the CO...with the consequence being that they could decide to kill the oldest unit in the area, they did the right thing and are trying to learn how to be an interactive CO. Gern, it is possible that the CO will indeed decide to let the units die if you confront them in this manner. I understand how negative this seems when your son is in the unit. However, I think that sooner or later this will be a situation that is confronted by the unit and the CO. If the unit is doing well as it is, that's good. And maybe it really IS best to let the sleeping dog lie in that case. In the case of this unit, it was in its last year of survival when I made the CO aware that the unit's fate was in their hands. They did the right thing.

Gutterbird wrote..."And as far as calling it "my troop", I did not mean that in the possessive form, I meant it as "being a part of"." I think that almost all of us understand this, so no apology needed. I try to avoid that word usage to avoid confusion of the meaning. Easier to get along that way. And it IS a good point, not to think we have personal ownership of a program that 'belongs' to someone else. Good luck

Talking about fun...our boys have learned to exploit the sports fervor of the public by extorting large amounts of money for very short-term rental of very small pieces of property that the unit doesn't even own (parking on game days). I mean - sports fans just take leave of their senses, we could sell pieces of gravel painted with team colors and they'd go for it. Nice. And situating the little sisters on the corner to beg in ragged clothing could bring a really nice dividend as well. It's the American economic system, love it or leave it.

If you have found the new pack, make it a great pack and try not to think about the previous one. The part about roadside cleanup at dusk without safety gear was all I needed to hear. If you're gone already, focus on your son. You've already done as much as you can do for the council. Try to put the past experience behind you and look to a better future.

I would like to add to Gonzo1's caution. Be very careful. I witnessed a child run over by an incredibly heavy parade trailer and it is an image that I hope no one else will ever again witness. Unfortunately I was also standing with my daughter and the last thing I ever wanted her to witness was the death of another child. We were too far away to do anything but witness it. The incident was caused by insufficient safety combined with typical behavior by a child. The little girl accidentally slipped under the wheel of the float just as it started moving forward. The driver had no idea there was a problem so he just kept inching forward. The wheel slowly crept up her legs, crossed her pelvic area and then over her chest and was about to crush her skull before the screams from the crowd stopped him. Then he had to back across the same territory to get off her. It was terrible. The mother was standing right there, apoplectic. I just held my daughter's head in my chest and tried to blink back tears. Nearly everyone was in tears. Just be very, very careful. Take nothing for granted.