packsaddle

uz2bnowl, Perhaps you can do what the other leaders in this unit couldn't. If you don't mind, compose a set of additional requirements that you think should apply to the Eagle rank and would have satisfied you if this particular boy had met them. Craft the document in a way that it will be absolutely clear as to what all the boys must do to attain the rank. Try to avoid any subjective or vague requirements. Also include, if possible, your rationale for each additional requirement. Then submit your draft to the forums for discussion. Who knows? Maybe someone upstairs will be reading this thread - and perhaps your suggestions or the discussion will make a positive impression.

OGE, A+.

...in my best 'talking to dog' voice, "bad Gern, bad, bad Gern". I too agree with Gern and Bob White on this. This unit had a very notable instance in which all adult leaders, with one exception, wanted to deny a boy his EBOR because they thought he didn't meet some personal standard in each of their own personal opinions (active?, scout spirit?, etc.). Over my objections we held a kangaroo court to 'pre-examine' the boy. At the end, I held sway and all but one agreed with me. He completed the requirements: he earned the rank. I 'won' this because I challenged the group to put up or shut up. I said I would consider their opinions when they could put into writing a clear, concise set of requirements that would meet all of their objections and when they made that document available to all members of the unit so that everyone will know what they are facing. They couldn't and they didn't. The boy made Eagle and I feel shame for the fact that I could not stop that kangaroo court from happening in the first place. It was so counterproductive and not necessary. Edited part: OGE, not the best example...normally there is also some kind of minimum GPA, often a 2.0/4.0. In some programs the GPA in the major courses must be greater. It is possible to earn 120 hours of credit needed for a degree and fail to ever get the degree. I am sometimes served by these individuals asking if I would like fries with my order.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

In our state, it took very little effort for our charitable club to attain non-profit status: http://www.nonprofitlawblog.com/home/2005/01/nonprofit_vs_ta.html This varies from state-to-state... but it took years for our non-profit club to attain tax-exempt status and much effort to maintain it. Read this carefully: http://www.rurdev.usda.gov/rbs/ezec/toolbox/501c3factsheet.html and the code itself: http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=browse_usc&docid=Cite:+26USC501 then take the course: http://www.stayexempt.org/ and then knock yourself out.

No, that would be wrong, You don't spit into the wind You don't pull the mask off the old Lone Ranger And you don't mess around with Jim, da do da do... ...or Slim either.

Having a tax ID does not, by itself, allow a claim of charity status. Neither does 'tax exempt' status. Tax exempt is good in that the organization does not have to pay taxes but the status of 'charity' is much more difficult to attain. Although there are many categories, the common one that most people think about is the IRS charity status usually referred to as a 501©(3) charity. This status DOES allow donations to be taken as tax deductions but there is a very high standard with significant reporting and accountability requirements that the organization must meet in order to get this status. Many small organizations simply don't have the resources or time to invest in the process (it often takes years). And most such groups fairly fall into the category of 'clubs' anyway, but they may qualify for 'tax-exempt' status, much easier to attain and maintain. That said, unless the PTA is operated by the school or otherwise receives government funding and support, I don't understand why a private group of parents at a school cannot be the CO. But you know the details much better than I do. I do still wonder about issues such as background checks and liability insurance that might affect a loose organization of parents differently from a more-organized group such as a PTA or church. I'd like to hear more about how this works.

Bloody noses and bruises are serious injuries...I suggest photos, close-up, of the blood, bruises, and spent bandages. Write this up for your own file with dates and names. This behavior would not be tolerated by parents in this area and would be resolved quickly by them or the CO, regardless of BSA guidance and regulations. You might want to seriously consider the 'leaving' option. If such comments are the measure of support you get from the other parents, it is insufficient (to my mind) to invest more of your personal time and energy.

Welcome to the forums! While the laws may vary from state-to-state, I used to set up accounts when I organized professional meetings. The banks would allow me to set up a non-interest-bearing account that was merely used to collect and disburse funds for that particular meeting. No tax ID was required. I don't know if you have access to something like this or not but I didn't have to pay taxes or do much else other than fill out the bank's paperwork. Another option might be to go to online banking. They may be more flexible than banks in your area. Evmori, on these forums, is a banker. He might offer other options for you as well. Good luck. Edited part: I'm curious about your chartering organization. What's the difference between the PTO and the Parents of...? Does BSA allow chartering organizations that have no real legal status (i.e., a tax ID number)?(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Yeah, unfortunately our cellar is in the 90's too. Daughter home for summer complains about the temperature in the house. I note that the thermostat is set precisely where she set it during her winter visit, so tough luck. I just love those withering looks she gives from time to time. I tell her to pay the power bill and she can set the thermostat wherever she likes. Back on topic, sort of, anyone know why dogs seem to love to roll in dead carcasses and eat cat feces? I mean, if I want to clean out a cat box, I just set it outside for a few hours and dogs from the neighborhood meticulously pick out all the solid stuff. And then the owners seem to just love it when the dogs lick their faces. Go figure. Regarding dead animals, the dogs seem to especially savor dead, really decayed fish over other animals. Anyone else notice this? Maybe they can better sneak up on bears or backpackers when they are so disguised?

Here's a web site on how to live in black bear country: http://www.ncrs.fs.fed.us/epubs/ht66.html and another from British Columbia: http://www.cmiae.org/bearprecautions.htm I have always understood that the perfume problem was two-fold: First, the scent might mask the human scent that a bear might try to avoid, and Second, it might also contain elements of animal musk that may contribute to bear behavior that we would not expect. I'm not sure about the scientific basis of either of these, however, if there is any such basis. I do know that on the one occasion when a black bear came barreling down on me and my wife, neither of us was wearing perfume and in fact probably smelled pretty strong of human scent. Anyway, I don't worry too much about smelling good on the trail and I don't expect such from others when I meet them. As I understand it, there was a time when bathing was considered unhealthy and the longer one could avoid bathing (and here I'm talking about months or years), the better. Go figure. And, as with air conditoining, as I repeat often to my children, people survived for many thousands of years without it. Same with perfume or even soap for that matter. Goes in one ear and out the other, almost unattenuated.

Flip608, welcome to the forums. I think that a BOR should not engage in 'head games' with boys. On the other hand, give them a few years of college and then I'll be glad to make them squirm as graduate students in their preliminary exams. MU-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!

My grandfather used to say that when you have children, you are hostage to fate.

Man, thanks! I almost felt like I was there again, what a great drama between the wolves and that grizzly. You had a great trip! My wife has similar problems (drunk driver/wreck/injuries) but she can do some non-challenging walks. Going back on that trail as the first people in a while was really special. Nice. When I drive out there I take the road that goes out through Cook City and then through Cody, sometimes up through Red Lodge. I just can't get enough of it. Try to get there sometime in mid-May while the streams are really swollen and the herbivores are dropping calves. That's a really dramatic time as well, but it would be hard to top what you described. The grind is just a means to do it again sometime. Thanks. P.S. when I was a boy back in 1957 my father and I hiked into Shoshone Lake to do some fishing. The water was cold then too, LOL. Didn't catch a thing but it was a good time for my father and this son. That was when I bonded with Yellowstone for life.

My vote is also with the pharmacy. Get the glucose tablets in sealed foil and forget the worry. Brent, By the way, nice hike, I know it although it's been a while. Where else did you go? That sounds like most of the encounters I've ever had with bears out West. If they know I'm there (and they have every time) they either ignore me or head the other direction. I've never had to use the bear spray (I leave my supply with a friend who lives in Cook City). I have heard that one of those aerosol boat horns is as effective a deterrent, if needed. Anyone else hear anything about this? I've never encountered a grizzly really close but off-trail (up the Lamar Valley) I have stumbled onto their fresh kills where they often bed down to guard it. Those were some very nervous moments. The only time I've ever been charged by a bear was in the Smokies with my wife at the summit of Mt. LeConte. Really interesting experience, having a snarling bear barreling down at you.

Hi Brent, if I had to pick a favorite it would have to be green or maybe that crystalline blue of glacier ice and of some really clear mountain streams that I mostly see in the Rockies or Cascades, but I mostly think in terms of rainbows...you'll understand. Vicki, I am so sorry I wasn't able to stop by. My work took me to Oregon (where I still am) and it just wasn't very convenient. Perhaps another time.

Well, I'll be beyond caring anyway. I hope it's a black atheist transexual from tralfamador or someplace even farther...closeted as a District Executive.

Heh, heh, I sure wish I had thought of that first! Good one!

Mine will be buried with me. You can dig for it if you want. But it will be one of those eco-burials, only a gps location out in a forest. Anyway you'll do better to dig for my gold crowns. It's a well-meaning sentiment but I agree with Beavah.

That helped a lot, as a matter of fact. For me it moves the whole matter to the 'past history, lesson learned' category. Case closed. Let the EBOR proceed normally. When I look back on age 13, no...better not go there...I wish the boy success.

He subsequently confirmed it in a followup post. I was going by that. "By the way the shiplifting issue has been confirmed at this point, he was 17 1/2 when the incident took place." Edited part: ketchome, are you still reading this thread? We could use a little clarification here...(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Sorry, perhaps I misunderstood. I was under the impression that the sign-off had already occurred before the crime. And that the issue was being dealt with by the Eagle advancement chair for the district. Am I wrong? Another puzzling aspect is the mention of a 'followup' BOR. Was there already a BOR as well? If so he must have failed. In that case, case closed. Or is the 'followup' BOR the official BOR required for the rank? In that case I may have understood correctly. Maybe some clarification by ketchome is needed. Edited part: repeated word(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

The TVA reservoirs: Chatuge, Nottely, and Blue Ridge all have water. East of you, on the Savannah, there is water in the large reservoirs. On Hartwell you can check with the Corps, but I think you can camp on the islands. I think Carters Lake, west of you a ways, is a great lake for canoeing and it should have some water although even the big reservoirs are way down right now. If your group is experienced, Lake Jocassee has about bottomed out and there is still water in it. And it's warm enough so you won't die of hypothermia if you capsize and the scenery is beautiful. A trip from Devils Fork State Park to Whitewater River, for example, would be a great day. And since the lake is way down you can see what it covered up, stunningly beautiful rivers. I took a group there about a month ago and we played in the gorges just up from the lake. It was paradise. Moreover, with the lake way down, it exposes extensive sand beaches. Nice.

In this case, the leader knows something without doubt. There was a crime. There was a confession. There was an apology. There is an expectation that a BOR will render a fair decision. There is no expectation that a BOR will do this in an uninformed manner. If, for example, a member of the board asks if the boy has ever stolen anything, I would demand an honest and complete answer from the boy. Although the leader is not supposed to be a member of the board, the leader is entitled to attend. If I was the leader, I would inform the boy of my intent to attend, and my expectation that he will inform the board of the facts of his poor decision. I will demand that he answer questions honestly. This sounds biased and it is. But it is biased toward getting the boy to honestly speak to the issue in his own words. It is biased against keeping the board in the dark, by causing the information to be given from the primary source. But the question to me is a hypothetical. And I can't know for sure how it would work in real life. But this is one way I can envision handling it and I'm open to other suggestions.

This broken record is about to skip again, sorry. In our area this is what pre-trial intervention is all about. At 17.5 he would be eligible for this if someone would merely press charges. The eagle rank is really not that important compared with this boy's entire future life. At age 17.5 he has so far learned that he can commit a crime and merely apologize. Six months older he will likely have a similar mindset and the punishment will not allow for any kind of intervention, he will incur a permanent record, and he may do time. The difference is profound for the sake of his life and the eagle rank is unimportant in comparison. I know of honor students with no priors in this community, who have made a similar poor choice thinking it was of no real consequence. PTI was brought to bear and believe me, getting cuffed at the front door by the police, getting fingerprinted and sitting in jail, waiting to get bailed out by parents, and then standing in front of a very stern judge with the power to really, really change one's life is a much more powerful lesson than a letter of apology. At his current age, the message would be loud and clear, "THIS option is closed for your future, be advised." However, as Beavah also has mentioned, I recognize that PTI doesn't necessarily work well everywhere as it does here. But I mention it as one possible way to proceed. As for eagle rank, inform the BOR, let them do the review and then vote in whatever manner their conscience will allow. And then honor their decision.

I tend to agree with Dan. I think there's more to it than a matter of perception. But as long as BSA seems unwilling to confront this issue, there is unlikely to be any resolution to the question in the title of this thread. The Pagans in this area are a gender mix about the same as other faiths. I've only noticed markings using henna, on the women and a few teens...but I haven't paid that much attention. The really weird tattoos seem to be on the local skinheads - I have no idea what faith, if any, they follow.