packsaddle

Think of the sacred rivers of various world religions. Sacred mountains. Sacred trees and forests. I submit that if a river can be sacred, so can a drop of water (witness the baptism in some faiths). To the extent that these are actually objects of worship (i.e. river gods) then I think BSA is, in fact, trying to be all inclusive. If anyone is uncomfortable with this I don't understand why unless it's because they think they've cornered the market on true faith. There can be sacred underwear as far as I'm concerned. Rooster7 can think this renders the requirement meaningless. Fine. Ignore it then. Otherwise, draw the line that most scouters can agree on and start throwing out those who cross it. Tell me what the line is. Define it in a way that is clear and unambiguous...and exclusive of someone who worships a river spirit.

Different George W. I sometimes agree with this one: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/30/AR2008093002320.html "'His name was George F. Babbitt. He was 46 years old now, in April 1920, and he made nothing in particular, neither butter nor shoes nor poetry, but he was nimble in the calling of selling houses for more than people could afford to pay.' -- 'Babbitt,' by Sinclair Lewis We are waist deep in evasions because one cannot talk sense about the cultural roots of the financial crisis without transgressing this cardinal principle of politics: Never shall be heard a discouraging word about the public."

Hey, I'd march in a gay pride parade. Nothing wrong with that! Beavah, I'm not ignoring you, my furry friend. Just wanted to respond to the earlier comment.

Trevorum wrote, "3. The father should be reminded that BSA does require belief in a god or gods." I add...even if that god is a rock or a piece of wood. The concept of reverence can apply to a very broad set of 'gods', even some that are merely conceptual.

Been there, done that...twice now. I wish I could blame it on children but...the wife did it both times. I just smile and extend the credit card for a new ceiling each time. Sorry, if the dry wall is soaked and warps under its own weight, you'll have to replace the ceiling. The light can is either going to work or not. It might rust. I try not to think about it too much. Sorry. If this is the first time, you might get lucky and it will dry out quickly without sagging - a little touchup paint and you're fine.

ScoutMomSD, you're right...I checked. It's depressing. Almost as bad as Nixon felt when he lost to Pat Brown, dark, depressing brown. So what's going to give? Heck if I know. We just bought a house 4 years ago. Paid for about 50% so we're good..as long as we make payments. One child of ours is out and just hired into a major corporation that I think (hope) is bulletproof. Our other is half-way through college. At $42K per year for college, we're feeling pinched. Plus the mortgage on our other still-unsold home. Retirement? I'm laughing with maniacal laughter. You've GOT to be kidding! (pardon my poor grammar) On the other hand, there's always the LOTTO or MegaMillions or what's that other thing, the Powerball. Unstuff your mattress and bet it all on red 23. You know that stuff in the mattress is going to lose value as fast as they print the stuff, right? Now THAT would be the way to hurt the rich right along with everyone else. Just monetarize the entire debt...really quickly before foreign countries can buy stuff with our worthless currency. THAT would be spectacular.

Mr. Euphemism here... Are you guys going at it 'hammer and tongs' or would that be 'tooth and nail'? Or maybe there's a better one out there. OGE, Ed, someone, help me out. Edited part: Dang, left out a whole word..I hate it when that(This message has been edited by packsaddle) happens(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

scoutingagain, I agree with Lisabob's assessment. This is no joke. It will have serious impacts throughout every aspect of our lives. (Lisabob, my 401k is worth about 60% of what it was worth two weeks ago) The thing is, not too long ago "This sucker could go down" was the kind of nonsense that satisfied a majority of this country as a substitute for reasoned thought. I am a bit surprised to see the sudden disdain for this level of analysis and insight on the part of our commander-in-chief. Some respect for the office, please. Go back and review this old thread: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=7047#id_161344 To answer your question, the absence of the flow of capital is what will cause a 'freeze' as you put it, in aspects of the economy way beyond credit. Payrolls will not be paid, inventory not replaced, everyone will pull in whatever shards of cash they have left, if there is any. Those who are desperate may turn to crime. We will begin to 'wink' at police misconduct the same way we've winked at the loss of 'habeas corpus' from the patriot act. Then we'll begin to suspect each other and perhaps turn on each other. To paraphrase Shaw, squalor and filth will become the foundation of society, soothed by drunkeness and mastered by the policeman's baton, except for those places and people where and on whom the ruling elite choose to slake their lusts. OGE, see if you can ferret that one out. Paints a pretty picture, though, no? Edited part: I guess Beavah types a lot faster than I do. But I am in agreement with him on this. We might get spanked. We might get spanked HARD. We earned it. (This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Thanks for the update. It's been, let's see, WOW, more than 14 years since I was CM. I really liked the cubs and I still miss them. If you're involved with Cub Scouting now, live it up because as far as I'm concerned, it's a lot more fun than Boy Scouts.

Eisley might explain this better but the way I understand the concept of 'financial meltdown' is when different institutions can no longer trust the creditworthiness of other institutions (current situation), they don't lend to them (rational decision). BUT, if no one is apparently creditworthy, then the system 'seizes' and everyone rationally decides not to 'oil the economic gears' with loans, and nearly all business comes to a crashing halt - from manufacturing right down to growing wheat. It is an apocalyptic, cataclysmic vision that is potentially real and in the aftermath there will be the real possibility that people will die as a result, indirectly due to inability to purchase services or goods in support of health care I suppose. I add that this vision is something that probably causes orgasm for people like Bin Laden. But I am ready to let these chips fall, finally, if that's what it takes to wake this country up to fiscal responsibility. It is a whole lot more than a dope slap. It might be the end of this country's economic dominion over the planet. But so be it, if that is what the market decides. WE made this Faustian bargain. And the price WILL be paid. Might as well be now.

"...the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Be prepared.

Gunny, when I was cubmaster I was instructed by the council that family campouts and similar meetings away from the CO did not require a tour permit under certain conditions. For example, if the pack decided to have a family campout and if the participating families are merely given directions to the campout, then travel is a family matter and the only concern I had was where people put their tents and built campfires after they arrived. It was essentially a family activity and the only Pack activities were the things that I organized for whoever showed up, after they got there. It was essentially the same as if we had merely changed the location for the regular pack meeting. I never knew for sure who would be there but I also didn't need to worry about their travel arrangements. And you're correct about the difference between this and a troop outing. Tour permits for almost everything, in fact this unit goes ahead and files permits for everything, even if we're fairly certain the permit isn't needed. Just a precaution. But that's a 'troop' thing.

If there was a budget surplus large enough to give that $200K, I'd be sympathetic. There isn't. There WAS a surplus and it wasn't used to pay down debt. To make such a deal today you'd be robbing future generations as surely as we will be with the proposed bailout. And I would not support that. Rather it is time for everyone to face up to their responsibilities.

A Trillion (with a 'T') dollars of wealth went away yesterday. Paying the piper, so to speak. Thing is, we still owe the full amount of the national debt.

My interpretation of #18 is that each driver should merely have a goal of getting their passengers to the destination safely and NOT an additional distraction of trying to stay with another vehicle. It is obvious that if several vehicles leave at the same time, headed for the same destination, there is a finite probability that they will take the same path and be near one another. As long as they are operating independently from each other, I consider #18 to be met. The reason I asked about the ash tray was if adults were smoking cigarettes, the source of the smoke seems obvious.

Bob White asked a good question. Also, what was burning in the ashtray?

Citigroup just bought Wachovia banking operations for $1 per share. I'd like to have a taste of that action.

Such anger! Such resentment! Damn that rap music!

"I re-read my post, I did not refer to protectionism or tariffs. I did not call you a liberal or any other name." I re-read my post. I never claimed you did. As for GM, we're agreed then that the market should treat them to whatever fate they deserve in the market? And if the market decides that profit and jobs should go to a company based in another country, so be it.

vol_scouter, By all means, if that's what you think, you really SHOULD vote for McCain. "As to GM, it made a mistake. However, the profits come here rather than to other countries. It is in the best interest of our country for profits to come here rather than somewhere else." Me, I'll stick with free enterprise and the marketplace rather than protectionism and tariffs. Profit should go to the successful competitor. Does that make me a 'liberal'?

Before I forget, Welcome to the forums, orrn4ever! I was the popcorn chair for several years. I grew to hate the stuff. But we had had similar experiences. And I heard similar indignance about timing and locations...it was such a pile of whining and handwringing. Big deal! This is called 'competition' in the marketplace. When I became chair, I made sure we were OUT there as soon as we could be and ANYWHERE we wanted to be. I merely shrugged off comments by the DE (he was about as insightful as a bag of nails). I took no prisoners. As far as working with people who had 'poached' on us, my personal policy in all matters is NEVER to make threats, and NEVER to give warnings. We did quite well. Welcome to free enterprise and the marketplace. I still hate popcorn.

I consider both candidates and nearly everyone else in DC to be dunces when it comes to energy policy. I consider the entire political establishment to be deceitful when it comes to the current economic situation. I am happy with Joe Biden's understanding of foreign policy. So my choice is based on that plus science and education policy. That said, I think vol_scouter makes a good point about McCain. Until his recent embrace of George Bush's failed approaches to most issues, he did demonstrate an understanding of the need to work 'across the aisle'. I believe that Obama also recognizes this although it seems clear that the Democrats are going to have even stronger control of both houses of congress, thus giving McCain fewer choices other than bipartisanship. In the 'debate' I was struck by the failure of either candidate to address the current economic crisis with any kind of clear, specific policy statements. I think this is because they are both too caught up in politics and afraid to confront the truth openly. Nevertheless I suppose that is better than the profound incompetence of the current administration.

vol_scouter, In case you're wondering, the 'election' website I posted isn't being held on behalf of any particular country (except perhaps the USA), nor on behalf of any particular candidate. It is essentially an unscientific referendum among the readership of a news weekly, and if you were to examine it carefully, you would see that it is read by heads of state all over the world, as well as elsewhere in top levels of world governments, including ours. And it is not a particularly 'liberal' medium, being almost totally concerned with business and commerce and unabashedly pro-American. They are conducting this 'survey' among their readership to get a 'feeling' of how persons around the world, at that level, view the two Presidential candidates. It is just for fun. And it ISN'T a direct survey of world opinion of the CURRENT administration...such opinion is already clear enough. But around the world, there is almost no preference for John McCain among the readership who have responded. THAT is interesting. The 12 world-wide electoral votes for McCain versus the over 8000 electoral votes for Obama do make a statement even if they are non-binding. The fact that so far the strongest 'support' for McCain comes from Andorra (a toss-up) and Venezuela (only leaning toward Obama) is just amazing. You're correct about this survey not being the official election and that our election will be the one that does count. However, as the current economic crisis clearly shows, the world does matter. Edited part: GWD, some stations around us had tank trucks arrive only to be sold out again in less than an hour. And yes, while I don't remember the rationing that took place during WWII, I do remember the effects of the oil embargo back in the '70s. Shades of things to come. I understand that GM wants to sell their Hummer division. One the forum members might even be able to afford to buy it just now, although it'd be worthless to me. I am totally unsympathetic to GM. They were on the right track when they had developed the electric car and then they dumped it for Hummer. They should pay the price.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

OK, I guess if we're going to go out to the rest of the world, hat in hand, to beg other countries to loan us money so we can bail out banks with bad loans, what the world thinks might matter. If we depend on imported energy and imported clothing, and imported...and...and...it might matter what the world thinks. Or we can be arrogant. But the USA was also on that map. The USA was going 78% Obama to 22% McCain. Did you vote?

Heh, heh, I just found this: http://www.economist.com/vote2008/?sa_campaign=publisher/september/gec/ This thread looks as good as any to put it. So when I looked, the Republicans had 12 votes worldwide. The Economist can hardly be viewed as a liberal rag so this was interesting. I suggest that if the members of this forum logged in and voted, you could maybe double the Republican support. Tee hee.