packsaddle

Oh, I think Gern is trying to remind us to be careful about making insensitive statements toward people who hold very devout and personal beliefs. And, assuming I'm correct in that assertion, I get the point. His comment would apply equally, say, to remarks about the ideas of people who believe in geocentrism, or a flat earth, or creationism, faith healing, or name-a-religion. And I plead guilty when those beliefs directly affect my actions and goals, especially if such things are pushed in the legal arena. When confronted with non-rational arguments, rational counter arguments don't work well. Satire and ridicule make the point much more effectively. This is the essence of employing reductio ad absurdum to their arguments and the beauty of the approach is that by confronting them with logical extremes, THEIR arguments are the ones that seem absurd as a result. Their hurt feelings should be an indication to THEM that they need to re-examine THEIR ideas. In this case the idea that we should be humane (this is a mercurial concept in itself) to other creatures has been taken by PETA (the 'real' PETA) to extreme, and IMHO, superficial and idiotic ends. I doubt that many of the PETA members actually understand the philosophical threads that have led to these positions. At least I have met quite a few who don't. And I tend to ridicule them. Same as the snake handlers, faith healers, creationists, geocentrists, etc.

Maybe because the 'pan' was too hot, yuk, yuk. Sorry, couldn't resist.

That's OK. I have known older prey to be tough and stringy. As with the rest of the animal world, I'd rather eat the young. Yum!

Many of us disagree with the PETA approach and I know that some of them are disgusted with those who do eat tasty animals. But speaking of eating 'real' kittens, I thought I'd share this piece of trivia from NPR: http://www.npr.org/templates/player/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=5223077&m=5223078 You can also google 'ortolan' and 'eating' to learn what the interview is all about in more detail. I've seen this and it is fascinating to see a man lift his white linen napkin, tucked into his neck, up and over the top of his head...and then a spatter of blood appears on the napkin when he crunches the skull. I've eaten live shrimp whole, and small fish (doing my best Gollum impression)but I think eating ortolan is 'for the birds', LOL.

See? Now this is the way to have some innocent fun in the forum on politics! Callico, Wow, I had almost forgotten about the sea urchins. Awesome! Here's something else I remembered about that: inject the males with KCl and they release mass quantities of sperm on their way out, it's a fatal manipulation (I've often wondered it something similar would happen if applied to humans). The thing I remember is that the urchin sperm remind me of low-cal mayonnaise. Now THAT's a nice association to hold in one's mind, LOL. But I've never had any question about why they call it 'gross' anatomy. By the way, that professor retired about 5 years ago. He is still active but not teaching physiology. His experimental work was on hibernation in rodents and I spent many hours watching him saw open their skulls to insert electrodes. It was almost comical watching those animals stumbling about in their brief caged lives, getting tangled in wires coming out of their heads. But, ahem, we didn't eat THOSE. ASM915, I think Gonzo moved, didn't he? But stop by anytime, we'll chum up some kind of charred wildlife flesh. And you can set your mind at ease, no trap doors at my place. But a local barber with a great sense of humor has Sweeney Todd posters on his walls. My dentist has practically memorized Little Shop of Horrors. It's the simple things in life that give such pleasure. There's a local tech school that has a Vet Tech program. I've never dissected a dog but I've worked on cats and pigs in lab, probably should stop the list there. H'mmm, those skills might come in handy if someday we decide to work for the CIA.....

Well....I was thinking more along the lines of Sweeney Todd, heh, heh. Back in the old days I had to instruct hundreds of students in how to pith a frog for dissections. If you're not familiar with this, the live, strugglng animal is held in one hand. Using a couple of fingers, the head is bent down and with the other hand you insert a dissecting needle between the vertebrae and down into the spinal cord. Wiggling it around a few times scrambles the spinal cord so the frog is alive but paralyzed. This allows the most desirable conditions for the subsequent dissection: literally slicing it apart in very small pieces while it is still alive. Needless to say, this is rarely done anymore. Invertebrates don't fare any better but according to some profoundly stupid people, invertebrates must not be capable of sensing pain. Go figure.

Heh, heh, I've had my moments with people who see things differently. I still love fish. I treat lobstahs and crabs pretty much the way everyone else treats them. And what I do to fish isn't really any worse than what other people do. I might take a bit more pleasure in the dissections though. We have a physiologiat who does action potential labs with living muscle tissue. The difficulty of dealing with frogs caused him to abandon that lab organism. His innovation was to take the same lab budget, buy live lobstahs from the grocery, do the experiments, and then eat the test subjects. Yum! SMT, I hesitate to ask...do you ALWAYS cook them? I'm reminded of the Massai whose diet includes milk mixed with fresh cow's blood. Mmmmmmmm.

The solicitor, our attorney, and a private detective failed to find two previous convictions for DUI, and several other less-serious offenses because they occured in small municipalities in other states and the records simply never made it to the database. They turned up years after the wreck and not through any kind of computerized check. The drunk was prosecuted once again as a first-time offender, paid a fine, and left for Oklahoma to enter flight school. Have a nice day.

This isn't directly related to PETA but only to the general concept. I had a student who wanted to study populations of mice on islands. She was going to live-trap them and release them after being counted, identified, and weighed. After two years of innoculations and applications to the animal welfare committees, she gave up. I refuse to do research on anything in phylum Chordata because of this. I can literally torture insects, snails, and clams, etc. and no one cares. I love fish. If I catch a fish, I eat it as soon as I can. I try to keep them alive so they're fresh. First I insert the tip of the blade in their anus and zip open their gut, pulling out by brute force all their internal organs so I can scan them for parasites. Then I quickly slice it up while it's still alive, sliding the blade carefully just under the skin and then along the ribs, extracting the filet often while the gill opercula are still moving, the eyes are still moving seeking an escape. Their bodies quiver in shock as the knife slices through their lateral line. Sometimes I eat them without fileting them. Then, they writhe in agony as I scrape their scales off and then gut them. Then and at the very end, their body convulses violently when the blade cuts through the spine, severing the head. But sometimes, if they're small enough I just throw them, still moving, onto the hot surface of the pan, head and all. They respond to the searing heat with more convulsions as if to escape a terrible predator. And then I enjoy the feast. Edited part: just saw Trevorum's note. I'm worried about you, Trevorum.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Thankfully, our council complies with what is written in the requirements, nothing more. They have never, in my experience, asked for letters - only a properly completed application. They have never asked for the workbook. The only thing they have ever questioned is whether all the dates are correct for advancements and merit badges, and whether or not all the signatures are in order. I have never seen a boy who completed his requirements on time fail to earn the rank. The idea that somehow by completing the requirements hours before the deadline, the boy has brought on himself this trouble - is unfair to the boy. It's called a 'deadline' for a reason. If he met the deadline then he has complied with that requirement. The deadline ISN'T for filing the application but rather for completing the requirements including the project. The EBOR and application can be completed any time within three months of his birthday without further question. I see this happen often these days and as long as the boy met the deadline for the requirements, and had the EBOR and filed the application within three months. he has always attained the rank. A three-hour EBOR is an 'ordeal', not a review. It's absurd. I agree with the 30-minute idea although I've seen them go to an hour or so if the boy just wants to shoot the breeze (adults always seem to be eager to participate). If I was the parent in this case, I'd be prepared to support my son in an appeal of a decision. Edited to add: I'd encourage him to make a meticulous record of every communication, what was said (hopefully written) and responses. For every phone call, also send a written letter. Print a hard copy of every email and response. You have the high ground, you just need to make sure you have the paper trail as well.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Welcome to the forums, Mika! I hadn't noticed that on the medical form but then I haven't filled one out in quite a few years either, Tsk, tsk. scoutldr, that must be specific to your state or medical system because my recent encounter with the knife showed no such info. It did, however, display the insurance account info which is linked to my SSN. Perhaps here in the South we're far advanced above the rest of the country, technologically.

For the sake of safety especially, I am so relieved that the deadbeat who took off owing me 6 months rent will never, ever, for the rest of his life be able to become a scout leader. While the drunk driver who nearly killed my entire family slips through, never having committed fraud or some felony. Edited part: typo, sorry. Also, I guess my point is that this 'perception' is likely to be a deception, actually a 'self-deception'.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

From personal experience (and I'm sure this varies from state to state) even information from convictions may not be found in a background check. But I am fairly certain that if they have not been convicted, people who have porn on computers, etc. will not be detected. BSA may have the right to demand the SSN but the argument is flawed on many levels if anyone thinks this provides much added safety. As for credit checks, unless BSA is going to use this info to badger people who have good credit for donations, I am uncertain of the utility. Please explain how a credit check is of benefit to the boys. Or to put this a different way, what is the cutoff for a credit score, if a volunteer is to be disqualified on that basis? Give me a number. Tell me why this makes sense.

I agree with Scoutldr. However, in this case I think that CA_Scouter is trying to make the point that the consequences to BSA and to the boys are the negative consequences, and not to the excluded adults. I think that's correct but BSA has probably decided that most of us will just roll over on this one.

Nothing that's written down. I've been told that projects with low hours are carefully examined. That's all I've heard. I suppose it's not as if projects with lots of hours aren't carefully examined, is it? H'mmmm We've just never had a problem along these lines. Yeah, I've been wondering about Beavah. And Gold Winger for that matter - but I'm afraid to ask.

My personal opinion is that they should not be 'requiring' the SSN. But my opinion means nothing for this issue. Your statement is, in fact, the message from BSA to any of us who do not meet the membership requirements regardless of length or quality of service. It's not all about US.

This year, huh? I was wondering why it hadn't happened to me yet. Decision time coming soon.... The local fishing license form 'requires' a SSN. I was buying one for my 14 year old daughter and I objected. They told me it was in order to help locate 'deadbeat dads'. I asked them under what circumstances they thought my daughter could possibly be one of those. They got mad. So I went to the local store and filled out the form without a SSN. The clerk gave me the license. No problem. A couple of months later, a phone call...I need to give the store my SSN or else. "Or else, what?" I asked. Or else they get in trouble with the fish and game people. I told them to have one of those officials contact me with a real explanation of why they need the SSN and I'll give it to them. No one ever contacted me again. So I called the state capital and asked. The buck got passed around forever. No one had any idea why they 'require' the SSN. We've knocked this topic around before in these forums. If their other record-keeping is any guide, BSA is incompetent at managing databases. I want everyone to think, now, about how difficult it will be for BSA to fake all those memberships in the future in order to scam United Way or something. They'll have random-number generators hooked to credit checks or something. I'll probably end up with Ed's SSN and OGE will get mine. Or the whole thing will accidentally get deleted or mixed up with stock market litigation or perhaps a voter registration list in Chicago or something. Our info is probably as safe as the Ark of the Covenant at the end of the first Indy Jones movie. In a short time, no one will ever be able to find it. That said, BSA doesn't need any justification. They are within their rights to 'require' the SSN as a condition of membership. They don't have to explain why. The decision is not complicated - give them the info or leave. But so far, I'm still getting my fishing licenses, no problem.

Ed, after the past few months, I'm wary of people who WANT this kind of information. Especially if they're a banker.

I often let the parents know that I realize their sons have about the same moral compass as raccoons when it comes to food. Good story. I'm a little concerned about missing an opportunity to teach them a lesson about deception. But it sounds like fun otherwise. I often swap the labels on small cans of salmon pate with labels from Fancy Feast. It really grosses them out. Some just stare in stunned disbelief. Others pretend to throw up. The older boys let the young ones wretch for a while and later let them in on the joke. We all get a good laugh. The pate isn't bad either. And (knock on wood) so far I haven't made a tragic error.

I can sympathize with the conflicted feelings of the Post writer. And I can probably confess to being one of those unidentified descendants of a slave owner. These days, I suspect most of us just don't know (or really care for that matter). One side of my family was very Southern. I still have living relatives who proudly display authentic framed bills-of-sale for a slave. I have seen the equally authentic Confederate money stuffed behind in the same display frame, as if for protection. They still have portraits of the traitors, Lee and Davis, hanging in their homes. They are not on my Christmas card list. At the same time, on the other side of my family, ancestors fought for the North and commanded ships with Farragut and had, among other things, great responsibility for the seige of Vicksburg. That side of the family IS on my Christmas card and letter list. But eventually, we're all related, however distantly, to someone who did something we consider immoral. Most of us don't have to go back very far. As the Post writer notes, it isn't important for today, except perhaps as a cautionary lesson, at least not more important than doing the right thing now and in the future. So I try to be accurate when recounting my family's history, what little of it I'm confident about - knowing I'll be added to it in fleetingly few years or perhaps sooner. And I make sure my children have the tools to make their own fair decisions. And then I hope for the best.

Thanks Brent, for bringing that to us. I plan to share it with this unit. BTW, your own trips sound great although I think the swamp trip sounds like more fun. When I was a teenager my father and I took a trip out to the mouth of Shark River. There was a trapper's roost there that my father said had been maintained since he was a young man himself. He and his father had made the same trip back in the '30s and at that roost they met a man in a sailing canoe who had started just below St. Anthony Falls at Minneapolis, come down the river and was making his way around the tip of Florida on his way to NY. My father said they never heard any further word of the man. What an amazing trip. One of these days....

Actually, no, I didn't know that. So thanks! That's what I like about this stuff, I constantly learn things I hadn't noticed before. I guess that first part of the thrill is why they aren't allowed by G2SS.

Was your turnout number just for the troop, I hope? But anyway, it sounds like a great success. I know I would have really enjoyed it. I'm guessing you weren't using flintlocks, though. Now that's a lot of fun too, two thrills with each shot, LOL. I'd sure like to get some of the guys with this troop out on an event like that. They'd love it. Down here we were in the 70s a day or so ago. The old joke from Oregon applies here. If the rain is cold it's winter. But congratulations on what sounded like a great success and a heck of a lot of fun!

Merlyn beat me to it, the defence of Newton. But I do get the implication that Trevorum refers to obliquely and I think he understands Merlyn's point: It's difficult to make fair judgements outside the context of that time. I think Trevorum's use of the term, 'crackpot', was 'tongue-in-cheek'. But that is an interesting observation, Trevorum, thanks.

10-4, you drive carefully and have a safe journey. And a Happy New Year!