packsaddle

Actually, I wrote, "...FUNNY hat". Try to get it right, please. And to be fair about this, I could just as well have been describing faculty (me included) and students at any number of college and university graduation ceremonies...equally ridiculous from a certain perspective. But that is a digression. Beavah, life began several billion years ago and hasn't stopped yet. If you think the human egg is not alive, or if you think it isn't human, then don't let ignorance stop you from concocting any number of other irrational statements and ideas about it. The funny hat is optional.

Are you sure about that? Are we allowed to take deductions for scout trips?

Lisabob, I have tried it both ways with mixed results. Re-viewing it often allows them to notice things they missed before, especially if we've just finished a discussion based on their first viewing. And like you say, a new experience puts them on level ground. I note that I just got around to watching 'Dark Knight' and as far as movies for Citizenship go, that ain't it. But I really did like those clown masks.

I never had much of an impression of Geithner before now but at one time I thought very highly of Daschle. No more, as far as I'm concerned they both should be disqualified. No way they didn't know about this stuff. No way they didn't ignore or hide it while they weren't being carefully scrutinized. They cannot be entrusted with public responsibility. Geithner may be IN but I hope Daschle gets the boot. He deserves it.

Yeah, that's good but in my version magic is what Michael Jordan does on the court. A miracle is the Braves winning the World Series. Hey, hey! Steelers by 4, yeah!

Ed, I hadn't heard about that, it's interesting. I guess the situation you describe falls outside the realm of the living will and power of attorney. But at least with regard to assisted suicide, the states are already answering, I think. P.S. Pittsburg ahead by 10 so far!

Not to mention all those other thousands and thousands of souls swimming in liquid nitrogen. TheScout, "playing God" or not, we're doing it anyway. How do you know this isn't what God wants? What makes you the authority on God's intentions? Besides, these frozen chosen could be saved simply if a sufficient number of women would just 'adopt' them and bring them to term. Southern Baptist men could merely make their wives submit. What's that sound...a stampede for the fertlity clinics? Naaaah! That genie is out of the bottle and it's not going back, folks. Women are donating and selling eggs the way men have been with sperm for years. Add a little Pyrex and the right procedures and wham-bam-thankyou-maam, lots of multiple births in ever-increasing success. Alternatively, if they aren't adopted but someone flushes the embryos or if someone refuses to pay the power bill, will it be the gas chamber for those serial killers and mass murderers? Never happen. Get real, people. TheScout, in response to your statement about magic: What's the difference between a miracle and magic? Explain to me how I can tell the difference. P.S. it's a rhetorical question, I already know the difference. Wanna know what it is?

Back when I was CM, pinewood derby was THE highlight of the year. Even better than the family campouts but those were pretty good too. I really miss the Cub Scouts. Anyway, within the pack, we had about 25-30 active boys, we completely consumed a Saturday afternoon doing the double elimination races, rank by rank. The boys had a blast. They brought their old cars and re-racing the old cars was never a problem because the boys all remembered every one of the previous year's cars. They didn't even care all that much about who won, they just wanted to keep racing and perfecting their own cars and to learn new ways to make them faster. Our track was a two-lane plywood thing but it worked well. Boys from the troop ran the event and it was always a big hit. There was a race registration fee that paid for the trophies, and a concession with hot dogs, etc. We usually made a little money to help buy the car kits for next year (the pack bought all the car kits for the boys and they were given the kits in the fall). The only 'politics' I ever saw was at the district level at which I was the 'weigh-in' person. I kept a record of the cars that won at the district level from the previous year and made sure that it wasn't the same car. It wasn't really a problem though. The real heat came when they didn't pass the weight criterion. The angriest parents, I think, were the ones who had actually built the cars. And I did disqualify a few. My son was no longer in cubs so I had no dog in the fight. And I brought my analytical balance with standards so all they could do was sputter. The boys are easy to deal with. It's the adults that are tough. I really miss the cubs.

I have two neices who were abandoned babies, near a factory entrance in a big city. I helped with the adoption of one of them. They were abandoned because of an attempt at government control of reproduction. It IS possible for government to mandate sterilization of certain individuals under certain conditions. This has happened in the USA in the past and it happens in other countries. "In 1907, Indiana became the first state to pass a law permitting involuntary sterilizations on eugenic grounds; at least 30 states would follow suit. Many of them simply adopted a model "eugenical sterilization law," crafted by the EROs Harry Laughlin, which called for compulsory sterilizations of the "socially inadequate." By the mid-1920s, more than 3,000 people had been sterilized against their wills. These included the homeless, orphans, epileptics, the blind and deaf. Also sterilized were those who scored poorly on IQ tests, who were diagnosed as being "feebleminded." http://www.cfif.org/htdocs/freedomline/current/in_our_opinion/un_sterile_past.html And it can happen here again. One conservative talk show host advocates that welfare mothers (he refers to them as 'brood mares') be served their own ovaries stir-fried as their last meal at government expense. There are plenty of people who agree.

Ed, technology is what will ultimately defeat any and every effort to regulate reproductive rights. There is no law that will accomplish the goals of the pro-life movement because, as we already have seen with respect to so many other aspect of bio-technology, legislation cannot be written in sufficiently specific terms to address rapidly changing technological abilities. Moreover, the legislative process is slow and doesn't come close to matching the pace of development of new technologies. For example, there are a lot of people on the planet who profess to follow the leadership of a guy who wears a funny hat and speaks a dead language. Technology invented 'the pill' and there was no way for mystics and sorcerers a couple thousand years ago to be able to predict that. The funny hat guy said (and still says) that people of his faith must not use 'the pill' and threatens them with punishment if they do. Italy has by percentage a greater proportion of that faith than any other country in Europe. Italy has the lowest birth rate of any country in Europe, actually well below replacement. I suggest that due to the ease of use of this technology, 'the pill' is being used in large quantities in Italy. Or else they are also the most sexually-frustrated people in Europe. I find this to be very interesting because it indicates to me that not only has this technology (very old technology by now) circumvented control by a church, it has actually demonstrated to the people that if the guy in the funny hat can't even successfully confront something as simple as 'the pill', he may not be all that authoritative in other matters. In this sense, technology is also undermining religious authority. When you begin to consider all the other technologies that are in use and in development (in vitro fertilization, stem cell technology) it is clear that the old institutions just weren't designed to respond to today's realities of bio-technology. TheScout, a right is an ability. We tend to think of abilities as 'rights' when someone or something attempts to limit the exercise of those abilities. If you want to credit supernatural magic for those abiliities, that is your 'right'. Edited for typos(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Lisa, Yeah I was just being certain about it. Ed, You are at least consistent. The technology genie is out of the bottle and you're not going to put it back. But I'm pulling for those Steelers. TheScout, then it's time to put some thought into it.

TheScout, since you don't seem to want to give us 'your' definition there's little more that can be said about it. It's possible that you have taken the Biblical approach which amounts to little more than magic. Or perhaps you think that fertilization is the moment of conception. Or you are simply ignorant on the subject. Either way you have said nothing about WHY that event, conception, however you attempt to define it, is important to be used in our code of laws. And you still have not addressed the other questions. Whether or not human life is a gift from God is irrelevant unless you are proposing that your religious beliefs should be the basis of our government and laws. Lisabob, I obviously would be fine with allowing women to make their own decisions, free of influence or coercion either by other persons (men included) or big government for that matter.

"Education never killed a baby. Counseling, listening to what the young woman has to say and explaining ALL the options for her pregnancy will not kill the baby. SHE may make a choice for abortion, but she also may not if it and her other options are explained to her." I agree. I think that ignorance is never an enhancement to the search for solutions to problems in life. This is a rational approach regardless of which political stance one takes. Speaking of which... "...you make it a lot harder than it is." "Life starts at conception." The Scout, that is a political stance, not a biological one. I would like to see your support for it even to be a religious stance. It isn't simple. Your statement is the kind of thing people think about with great certainty and confidence while watching the sun and stars orbit the earth. I can make a more credible argument that life is a continuum and you have no biological counter-argument unless you also believe in spontaneous generation. But the political stance that you stated isn't even workable, for that matter, because while you think you know what 'conception' is, in the above statement you have left its meaning to be some nebulous fantasy that everyone else is free to interpret in their own way. Any definition you propose has equally valid alternatives. And that's just the beginning...you haven't addressed any of the other issues. Fill in the details if you want to intrude your political views and big government into the lives of others. Edited to respond to pinkflame (I'd like to know more about that nickname)(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

It is incumbent on those who want to regulate this technology to define realistically what the terms are. It is easy to speak the words, "Life is sacred" and "abortion is murder". What that bumper sticker approach doesn't do is the hard work of carefully stating what you would have in place of what you have now. At what stage of development should the law draw the line? What is the decision-making process that will address life-threatening situations? What punishment do you apply to those who break the law? What government institutions do you engage to assimilate and care for babies that women are forced to carry to term? Do you try to punish those who have the resources to cross the state line? Current popular birth control methods commit millions of abortions that you don't even know about. Are you going to allow that to continue? Are you going to try to stop the development of molecular biological methods that will completely replace surgical techniques, invisibly? How? These are just a few of the questions that must be answered in a manner that is better than something you can put on a bumper sticker. So far, after 6 years of a pro-life President and a majority pro-life congress, NOTHING has been answered with legislation. SIX years. Either the pro-life advocates are in a minority or else they're incompetent to address the issue in a way that can produce viable legislation. The pro-life movement had the perfect storm for their cause and they didn't do it. Get over it. Edited part: Liz, I guess we were typing almost at the same time. Re: the 14 year old girl you mentioned, I think that as bad as that situation was, it hardly would have been improved by government intruding with its nose. As it is, you can take some solace in the fact that you are free to go tsk, tsk, with no further responsibility for the outcome. That responsibility is being borne by those who made their mistakes and the decisions. As it should be.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Narraticong, I'm sure Beavah and The Scout would be glad to make the decision for her (and you) through legislation that tries to limit access. I know people who have already faced the hard decision after their daughters made some of those sad mistakes. The point is, THEY made the decision. Not the government. All government can do is make the decision even more difficult and more expensive.

This whole argument is BS. The woman will always have the choice, the technology is not going to vanish - it's too simple...and eventually there will be biochemical ways to terminate pregnancies that are undetectable and private. The only thing in question is how much it will cost, its convenience, and its safety. None of that other stuff is going to change the fact that she will decide and that her decision will be based on how she weighs the factors in her life. Get over it.

I think her point was that for thousands of years, perhaps even today in much of the world, women have not had the freedom to choose their role based on their own personal abilities and desires. I agree completely with Beavah's assessment of the Bush dynasty - Disastrous in a way that few seem to comprehend. We can argue about when the hole began and I could even extend one argument that it goes back to Nixon's decision to take us off the gold standard. It isn't really important because we had a chance to dig out of it as late as the Clinton administration. Bush did more damage than all the previous ones combined. I am fairly certain that true recovery will not happen in my lifetime. However, I disagree with those who have high hopes for Obama. He is not moving in a direction that will provide long-term prosperity for the country. Rather, he is being persuaded to continue the lie that is our current economic system and he's about to commit another wave of gargantuan theft from future generations as a desperate attempt to correct the previous gargantuan theft. It may feather our nests for a little while but it will have dire consequences eventually. To his defence, I doubt that anyone else could do better. My name is Jeremiah and I would like to congratulate all the Wall Street people who just got over $18 billion in bonuses for their exemplary performance in guiding our economic futures. I could not think of a more appropriate way to waste my taxes.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

This just out from The Economist: http://www.economist.com/research/articlesBySubject/displayStory.cfm?story_id=13005499&subjectID=348924&fsrc=nwl I'm not sure if everyone can open the link though, give it a try. They are not the least bit sympathetic to PETA.

Yeah, I stand corrected. I got an interesting PM on that as well. Thanks.

Hal, interesting. You are probably correct. He joined the Air Corps long before the war so that's probably the source of the confusion in my mind. He worked on welds, and hydraulic systems but never got as far as the B-24. He was stationed all over the place but did his training at Chinook Field, later stationed in the Galapagos, some other places and ended the war in Italy. He left me with some great photos of B-17s B-12s, etc. as well as autogyros and even the old Martin Mars. Some of the photos are of formations over the Alps. Nice. I still have some flak he picked out of returning planes. I didn't know until nearly the end of his life how badly the war had scarred him. But that is another very sad tale.

Has anyone noticed the date on the original post?

I guess those were rented pilots and planes that we flew in World War I. I wonder what 'USAAS' stands for? My father was in World War II and he serviced and flew on bombers and other planes in combat. There was no Air Force. It was only the Army...the Army Air Corps. The Air Force was unnecessary as the Army had it covered nicely. Also, the Navy had their own aircraft as well. The guys who flew there were called 'Navy Pilots'. I wonder what they're called today? As I understand it, both the Army and the Navy still have their own aircraft. What a waste, having the unnecessary administrative redundancy of an Air Force! Narraticong, if you read the link in my previous post it will be very disheartening for you. But I disagree, there should never be any unnecessary spending no matter what the situation. The problem we're in right now is due to a lie that we've all allowed for a very long time, called deficit spending. There was a glimmer of hope when Clinton was on track with surpluses and paying down debt. But the last couple of years, I fear, have permanently ruined us. It is clear that Obama has no solutions. I can't blame him because in the long run there ARE no solutions except to suffer the consequences. I probably won't live to see the ultimate collapse...but then I didn't think the current situation would happen this quickly either. The trillions that we're wasting now amount to nothing more than a huge theft in order to cover a previous huge theft. It doesn't fix anything, it's just kiting more checks. What we need to do is what you have done in your personal life. We won't. And we're going to take you down with us and there's nothing you can do about it. Have a nice day. Edited, OK the pre-Air Force air force posts were written while I was still typing. Sorry(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

SR540Beaver, from that article one can find the following words: ""How you can spend hundreds of millions of dollars on contraceptives how does that stimulate the economy?" House Republican Leader John Boehner, R-Ohio said on Friday after congressional leaders met with Obama at the White House." I could respond that the flow of funds into the hands of pharmaceutical companies by purchasing their products might just provide some stimulus. I suspect those companies would agree. However, everything about this 'stimulus' and the recent and ongoing meltdown in our economy is related to the Ponzi scheme that we recognize as our financial system. I refer you to the article by Bill Gross of PIMCO: http://www.pimco.com/LeftNav/Featured+Market+Commentary/IO/2009/IO+Gross+Jan+09+Andrew+Mellon+vs+Bailout+Nation.htm I've tried everything with the html editor and I can't make that link work right so just cut and paste it into your browser to make it work. Gross has a pretty good bead on this and he is making a pile of money off it because he really does understand the Ponzi (or should that now be 'Maddoff'?) nature of our economy as well as the huge deception that we're perpetrating during this bailout/stimulus. We need to pay the piper now and not to hostage future generations to debts that can never be repaid. And yes, Lisa, people are going to die in poverty or worse without adequate food, shelter, or health care. That is, and always has been, the fate when resources cannot support the population or the society. Yes, it is going to be very painful for most of those who survive. Yes, the worst of the burden will be borne by our children in the future. And Yes, the slimes who floated the scheme are going to do just fine. They're not going to get caught or punished. As Gross says, Ponzi, Ponzi, Ponzi! These outcomes are already determined. It's just a question of which generations are going to make the payments. My solutions: Eliminate social security. Period. Eliminate medicare and medicaid. Period. Let the "thousand points of light" pick and choose which wretches to allow to live. And let the rest die. This is the way the unseen hand and magic of the free market really works. Just let it do its magic.

Beavah, I have seen and heard some off-the-deep-end viewpoints around these parts but nothing, and I really mean 'nothing', I have seen or heard comes close to matching what you described in that previous post. Just for laughs, I might let a few students have some fun with it. One of the subtopics I encourage them to pursue is the concept of deception. Like you said, rich material indeed. My children were born in the same hospital. We needed passports but never had birth certificates issued (or else we lost them or something). Anyway, I merely paid a visit to the county health department, paid the appropriate fees, and had their birth certificates printed and mailed to us. No problem. Aside from some people who seriously need to consider a visit to the skull ranch, I don't understand why this is such a big deal.

Understood, Scoutldr I actually meant 'to his own health and safety'. The guy was a really nice guy and I really worried about him when he was working. We were doing field work on boats and I made it clear that there was no way he could get back into the boat if he fell overboard. The boarding ladder could take it but he wasn't strong enough to do it. I told him we'd do the best we could but that that would probably involve securing a rope to him and towing him ashore. Fortunately he never fell.