packsaddle

In our unit, the cell phone is the only electronic device that is allowed and then for adults only. I guess a Blackberry would be allowed as long as it didn't become an attractive nuisance. I have seen leaders at summer camp with electric fans and televisions. GAD!!! Makes me want to do mischief somehow.

"How many times do we adults say to ourselves, oh that doesn't apply to me?" Hal, it's different for young people and adults with children. Back when my children hadn't fledged, I put lots of things off to avoid risk. They're out of the nest now and for people like me, who want to go out with their boots on, it still applies - but there is less cost to society when we take one risk too many. (actually, for some of us it might be of benefit, but that's another topic) Until that fateful time, the thrill is just sublime.

Glad to see he made it. I remember seeing signs here and there (Obsidian Cliffs area in Oregon, for example) where persons have just vanished without a trace. That stuff does happen...much more tragically for young persons who have most of life ahead than for cantankerous old guys like me who just go alone for the thrill of the risk. I took one of my classes on a field trip recently and we were near the AT when one of the students announced his interest in a throughhike of the AT. I went along with him until he announced that the thought he could do it in a couple of months or less. I noted the overall length and how many days that was and how many miles per day he'd have to do. He seemed cocky until I hiked his butt up a short section to the top of one of the higher peaks on the trail. When we got to the top he was singing a quite different song. Thought maybe he'd take it a little piece at at time. I said, "good idea".

Tell him congratulations for me and congratulations to you too! You have a tremendous maternal investment and I am so glad that you can feel the pride that you feel. You have two fine, fine sons. P.S. I'll be in your area again soon, I think, for some more escargot.

I agree with scoutldr. I think we should be able to trust our fellow adult leaders to use cell phones judiciously. This could be reinforced by having a friendly chat about what the troop policy should be and coming to a common understanding. But some of us do need them more than others. (one of our leaders was a medical doctor and another works for EMS) A long time ago, my provider was the only one in the troop that had a signal during one of the outings. Luckily, I was able to notify the troop of a family emergency for one of the boys and we were able to pack back out effectively. Now if you're going to discuss cell phones that the boys have, that's another thing.

As I recall, after Moses received the 15 (CRASH, oops!), I mean 10 Commandments, Exodus reads like this, "6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, 7 keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation." That part about visiting iniquities seems to apply here. Doesn't seem fair but that's life. "...try to look on the bright side of life..." Fact is, his family is going to suffer no matter what. But HE did this to them just as surely as he could have done something awful to other innocent persons while hurling several tons of metal through the public under marginal control. If we go light on him in order to spare the family, what does he learn from that? Answer: the same thing the multiple-offending-drunk who hit my family learned. He'd learn that after he gets off lightly he'll be able to do it again.

My intolerance comes from personal experience. Family nearly killed, drunk crossed centerline at high speed. Family on the way to school at 0800. Drunk blew 0.35, also on Xanax, no license, borrowed car, minimal insurance. Years of litigation. Drunk fined $200, no jail. Went on for airline pilot training. Have a nice day. I make no apologies. I have a special contempt for these slimes. Zero tolerance.

Bob Dylan, right? Anyway, if he blew more than the legal limit, it is not good enough to wait for trial...that could be years down the road. I think you should involve the CO as well. If he blew more than the limit do whatever it takes to have him booted. The CO may pre-empt the council and terminate the guy. The CO doesn't have to give a reason. The guy needs to be dumped...with great prejudice. I'd be happy to do it for you. Edited part: Hi, I see we were typing at the same time. Forget my conditions about the legal limit. He pled to the deed. Dump him any way you can as quickly as you can. Humiliate him. Make him know he is a detriment to society. Personally, I'd give him a good kick on the way out the door.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Shortridge, gee, I almost feel guilty for instigating this but I think it is a good exercise to really understand the real costs. I would also add that there are inevitable unexpected or capital costs. For example, the (state, county) changes the code and the entire sanitation system must be replaced/upgraded...or the dam safety people find the need for a major rehab on one or more of the dams on your lakes..or a storm drops dozens of trees on structures. This stuff is really expensive and also impacts the long-term viability of the camp. Prior to boy scouts, I sent my son to one of those private camps (llama trek on the AT) and that went for about $1K per week back in 1994. Their facilities were very minimal and not even close to being as nice as the BSA camp. I think about these kinds of comparisons everytime I hear (or vent) complaints about the scout camp. We are getting a really good deal and we tend to take it for granted. Personally, I consider this to be unhealthy because it engenders a feeling of entitlement and it allows us to be ignorant of how good we really have it. Paying the freight out of pocket would change a lot of that.

Yes the book is especially good if the power is off, but the web site is just great. I'm going to give that link here so it is hot on the forum. I have to tell you it did my heart good to see all of the boys swarming over doing lashings yesterday at the troop meeting,like yellowjackets on a piece of fried chicken. And then this morning I enjoyed sitting for a long time, practicing knots with my computer and a piece of rope. Nice. http://www.animatedknots.com/essential.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com

Troll? Huh?

On the other hand, the adults have obviously made the connection and tried a remedy by separating the bulk of them from the boys. Another option would be to congratulate them on recognizing the problem and work in that direction to 'wean' the boys even farther off the glut of adults. It will be important to observe just how well the adults pull this off and stick to their plan. But if they do understand the need for the boys to DO for themselves, this might be a step in the right direction and all that needs to be done is keep them moving in that right direction. They have an objective rationale for assigning four adults, now all you need to do is add boys to the outings. But you know me...the eternal optimist.

Welcome to the forums, jstrainer. And my compliments for resuscitating a thread that's over 4 years old. Really, that's OK. I like to do it once in a while as well. But I agree with you, the boys are all unique and can't be expected to fit into a cookie-cutter world.

Jet526, You know, I did read that and I guess I need my wife to start nagging me about it because I completely forgot the details. But you're right, the boy should not be involved in delivering letters or forms from references to the DAC or council. Thanks for the reminder. I'll defend CA a bit. In this district it has been common for the rules to change suddenly, without warning, and for no apparent reason (not, thankfully, to include letters though). I can understand how a leader can be unaware of at least some of the rules, some of the time.

Lisabob, could you get your son to elaborate on those things that add to 'dork factor'? I'm familiar with the term but I just can't seem to fully understand its application. Also, get him to help me distinguish 'dork' from 'nerd' from 'dweeb' from, well, you get the idea. These things are really confusing. I mean...I need to know where I stand.....

"The candidate should have contacted individuals listed as references before including their names on the application. If desired by the council, the candidate may be asked to deliver a blank reference form and envelopes to the listed references." The above statement is fairly specific about what the council 'may' ask the scout to do. Does the scout store sell these blank reference forms? Or does the council supply them with the application? I admit, I've never seen one. But I have not read those 'other' documents cover to cover. Where do they mention the council asking the scout to collect letters and to bring them to the EBOR or to the council?

This council does not require anything more that what is on the Eagle application. The council is free to make the contacts if they want. Every time I've seen ANYTHING more than the application go to council, the council has refused the added materials and taken only the application form...and I've never heard of a single call or request for a letter. Guess we're just lucky. Edited for clarity(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Would someone like to expand on those "big yabos"?

Looks like unanimity on this thread and I won't disagree. In fact my anger at bean-counters in general is already rising just from reading the account. Shower the guy with worthless paper and tell him that you did it in the true spirit of scouting. Heck, post the address and I bet a bunch of us would write letters - the DAC address, that is, and the letters would help drive the point home. Need a cup of coffee to calm down.

"I just paid $180 for summer camp, just paid $100+ for a uniform, and you want MORE money?" Nice quote, probably occurs often. We just give each family a piece of paper to take home and consider. No pressure. The page contains all the facts and figures. If the marketplace was allowed to work, families would quickly understand that $180 for camp is cheap, cheap, cheap! If the marketplace was allowed to work, WalMart would have the uniforms for half the cost. OK, that last part is probably exaggerated, but the idea behind it holds. IF those of us who benefit from the services ACTUALLY PAID for them out of our pockets, not only would we appreciate those services (that we chose to purchase) even more than we do now, we also would stop taking Scout Camp for granted. AND we would have much, much more control over the types and contents of those services because their existence would depend directly on customer interest. As it is, BSA essentially engages in precisely the kind of "spread-the-wealth" practice that I think most scouters already object to by the government, by pressuring those who CAN pay on behalf of overpaid executives and some families who can't pay. Perhaps this is one more delicious irony for my collection.

Beavah, Oops.

Eamonn, I think I would pity those people. Thomas Tusser comes to mind, "a fool and his money are soon parted." In their case they do it voluntarily. Try not to notice the whining. As for you, my advice is to do something nice for HWMBO and tell OJ to get a job. It will be good for everyone. That said, I think that frugal is the better description. Another person might have mentioned the term, 'tight'. But not me, no sireee! I'd never mention anything like that.

I have found that the message gets through to me more effectively if my wife nags incessantly. Therefore, I appreciate Kudu's repetition of his messages. Eventually, it's going to sink in and I don't mind. Ahem, I suspect I'll pay more attention to the wife, though. (Vicki, this one's for you)

O - M - G!!! Beavah, did you just write, "Daddy-O"???? You don't happen to have a set of bongos or something like that do you? Maybe a goatee and sunglasses? Wow, my mental image is reeling. I'm seeing......Maynard G. Krebs, like for sure, man!

To me it would be better (and more honest) to charge everyone the actual costs of going to summer camp. Let the market do its magic rather than practicing that communist approach of taking according to what they can give and giving it to the masses as a subsidy. It is better for the families to know the real costs and to pay for them. That will make them appreciate what they get even more.