packsaddle

Tell him for me that I hope he can carry the good feeling of this accomplishment for a very long and productive life. And as for you, as my son tried to say for my birthday so very long ago when he was learning to speak, "Happy to You!, Happy to You!" These memories are just sooooo good.

Just saw this: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/04/us/04marriage.html?_r=1&hp

Wow, Trevorum! I just realized that you're right about that. I am fairly certain that I'm not Eagledad's neighbor but I DO have a neighbor who considers me and my family to be 'deviant' because (Horrors!) we have black people as friends (He's the fundamentalist minister down the street with the confederate flag). Not only have we had black children over to our swimming pool and for birthday parties, worse, we've actually allowed our children to spend the weekend with friends who happen to be black. It is becoming clearer now. Well, I guess he'll just have to put up with it.

"Its one thing to put up with neighbors with deviant behavior, its another thing to hand your kids over to them for a weekend." Could you be more specific? Who are you talking about? What deviant behavior? "...put up with..." what does that mean?

I also feel you should consider making the presentation. I have not been through something like this but I hope I would make the presentation if I were in your shoes. Regarding the matter of being overruled, I get overruled daily, hourly really, by my wife. Rarely, I overrule her on some matter. We both understand the concepts of duty and obligation and trust. Being asked to present the award is a really small matter in the grand scheme. Be gracious about this. Think about it for another few seconds and then do the right thing.

"Groundhogs are best broiled to medium rare..." For those of you living north of the Mason-Dixon line, it works for rats too.

Anyone ever watch "Pink Flamingos"? Especially the very last scene that takes place in Boise?

Implied intent seems to flourish as a deceptive tactic in these arguments. So to shift slightly to one possible future, if we had local option for councils, maybe even more local, for all of these kinds of things, the application of local option would surely extend to this kind of mundane activity as well if it applied to something as important as membership. So my question is, if we had local option, would it lead to this kind of disagreement? If we can get this hot over something as inane as laser tag, what then about those truly 'hot' issues? Edited typo.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

No, that is not what is being communicated. I also disagree with the laser tag ban but I do recognize it. What it means is that the troop cannot do it as a troop outing or part of a BSA-troop-oriented activity. If you want to organize a birthday party for your son you are free to do this any way you decide to and you are free to invite anyone you want. If they happen to be Boy Scouts that is not relevant. As long as the true basis for the outing is the celebration of your son's birthday, it wouldn't matter if the entire troop, among others, attended and played laser tag. The outing would be on your nickel and at your risk, not BSA's or the CO's. However, there is a distinction here. If you USE the birthday as a way to rationalize breaking a BSA rule, then you are engaging in a deception and not only will you know this but it will set a poor example for the boys. I think this was also the point that Eagle732 was making. Edited part: typo(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Lisabob, I agree that context is important but it isn't everything. To make a judgement, content is also important and the comparison you just made is one largely of content, not context. I also suspect that there are some things that all of us would agree are the 'real deal' but there is also probably a gray area where an unrestricted magazine qualifies as the 'real deal' for some but for others it is merely silliness (your other characterization). I see the real problem in terms of the need for the boys to develop healthy minds and judgement. We can't necessarily do that merely by restricting access to whatever media we control. We also have to teach them (with a capital 'T') to be able to make good choices on their own. Edited part: Lisabob, I just realized that my post could be viewed as a strong disagreement. I didn't mean it to be taken that way. I was trying to clarify and expand on your post.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

I was a cubmaster for years. In order to repond meaningfully, I'd like to know more detail. How many boys in the pack, numbers in each age? Are there leaderless dens or as was suggested, do you merely have a superden? Do you have an active committee? Is the CO aware of this situation? Is the problem this one guy or are there other things? When I started as CM I was also trying to hold a pack together long enough to get it back on its feet so I understand how frustrating these things can be.

This is related to language skills as well. Every few years we'll get a complaint about someone's new scout having learned new vocabulary at scout camp or something like that. And once in a long while I'll learn a new word as well. When we meet with the new parents we try to communicate how we will respond to something like this. Just so they know it's possible and what to expect if it does happen. The reponse depends (and should depend) on the infraction and the context. The sexting and similar things aren't a problem for the troop because cell phones, etc. are not allowed (see the other thread on cell phones as a necessity of life). The only time we allow electronics is for long trips. We try to monitor that stuff but then it is locked in a secure place once at destination. For normal activities, this leaves only spoken words and printed material as a potential medium. We had a couple of situations with 'new vocabulary' and some bawdy songs on a long trip. Result: talk to the boys about how it is perceived by others, about how 'fun' can be viewed as offensive, etc. and, depending on what the infraction is, maybe a discussion of how this stuff degrades ourselves when we engage in it (that's probably not going to get through to many of the boys). If we found a Playboy or something like that, we'd confiscate it let the scout live in total terror as to what we'd do with it after the leaders finished reading (oops, I mean examining) it. We'd probably deliver it and the boy to Mom and let her know the context, etc. A long time ago another troop I knew mooned a bunch of towns on their way back from the beach on Sunday morning riding in the clearly-marked church bus. That still brings a tear to my eyes. We had a couple of boys writing rude things and posting them in the window as signs to other traffic from our church bus. They spent the remainder of the trip thinking of what they were going to write in their letters of apology to the church minister. So far, we've not had (or at least we're unaware of it) anything hard core to worry about. We try to reserve that stuff just for the leaders. I remember well what it was like growing up. They just have more ways of expressing themselves and sharing the forbidden fruit. Of course we ban the stuff. That's part of what helps make it so thrilling.

Good Morning! That's me, little mister sunshine! About that mirror, do you ever think to yourself, "Mirror, mirror, on the wall.....?" Don't answer that. But I know what you mean. I try not to look, myself. Tend to cut myself shaving a lot. The problem is I KNOW what will be staring back at me - but I still try to THINK in much younger terms. Helps to relate to the boys and students. And in some respects it works the other way around too. They help me think in their terms as well. I still have a professional goal (OK, maybe not so professional) to deliver an entire lecture in Valley Girl speak. I've been able to do a few paragraphs from time to time....or maybe moon walk my way across the blackboard...the stunned looks in the class are just priceless. Tried doing Nixon. Blank stares. I guess that goes too far back.

We have a knot log. The hitches are tied to the log and the bends are hanging from it. The log itself can be hung anywhere and is large enough to form the top of a gateway if you want. I haven't counted it but I think it has about 25 different knots, maybe 30. I'd also remind everyone that someone (sorry, can't remember who) listed a really great website: http://www.animatedknots.com/ I'm still enjoying that site and there are enough different knots to keep anyone busy.

Brent, GAD! I almost reacted the way students often do when I begin to explain why urine is the color that it is. I guess what I was looking for was a dichotomous key or something like that to distinguish plain old conservationists from plain old environmentalists. I'll have to think some more about those 'varieties' or 'subspecies', LOL. The politics of it all are probably going to make me ill but what's new there?

Thanks, I accept those examples but I need the characteristics, the reasons that those are the examples. The reason I ask is that for a stereotype to work well, the groups must be capable being segregated in a clear and objective manner. If there are two groups the distribution would be bimodal and if more groups, there would be multiple modes. On the other hand, if the population was composed of a large mode about some mean but with representatives in small numbers out in the 'tails' of the distribution, I would not support the creation of stereotypes if they were based on two 'lunatic fringes'. Here's the important part: If there WAS only a single mode with two lunatic fringes, is it possible that members of those two fringes would 'think' in terms of stereotypes?

What they said. In this unit we often have boys who are on a swim team (school or private). We let the coach sign the book. Other times we have had one of the ASMs to do this at a public pool (with pool lifeguard present). The rest of the boys do it at summer camp usually, with one or two just not wanting to get in the water until they are about 14 years old. They catch up fast then. As long as Safe Swim is in compliance I see no problems.

Yeah, I spotted this during an orienteering course. The leaders were flustered because the compasses pointed different (not opposite) directions depending on where they were placed on the wooden table. Then I pointed out that about 1/2 inch away there was a metal support frame here and there under the surface, not to mention bolts and nails. Concrete didn't work either because of the rebars. So we resorted to the ground. I can't explain the opposite points but if the problem is that obvious, someone should be able to figure out the fix (use the other end of the needle). Edited for Nolesrule: Back when I was very young my family had a place on Bokeelia Island. I would leave in the morning with my canoe and a fishing rod. I'd collect fiddler crabs for bait and catch snappers and other fish to take home. I'd take the canoe out to the end and climb palms to get the coconuts, maybe pick oysters or dig clams. It was the time of my life and I didn't even know it. But I also had an outrigger and a small outboard that I used to get out to Cay Costa or Boca Grande and one day I took my canoe out into the Gulf to fish some rocks I had seen on a chart. Inadvertently I took it out of sight of land. No compass. I learned right there the meaning of 'be prepared'. Fortunately I had fuel and the sun was low so I was able to figure out 'East' and I landed almost exactly where I needed to go. Someday I need to write that stuff up.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

OK, I'm trying to get these stereotypes clear. I remember sitting at the table listening to a division chief rant about environmentalists opposing the nuclear plant we had under construction, when the president (of one of the largest power companies on the planet) leaned over and told him and me that he considered himself to be an 'environmentalist'. And I am quite certain that he did not drive a Prius nor did he ever, in his adult life as corporate president, sleep in a tent. So help me out. Was John Muir a conservationist or an environmentalist? Olmsted? Aldo Leopold? Give me some clearly-identifiable characteristics and examples that conform to those characteristics. Show me how to separate the two groups. It isn't that clear to me.

"Mrs. B., this is going to sound like an insult but will you still be my SM when I make Eagle - you're kind of old." I have to point out, Gwd, that this was 'code' for, "are you still going to be alive?" Actually, I have been asked this question directly from two boys. And I DID remember it at their ceremony. But to cross-pollinate this thread with another for a moment, the idea of being bottom-heavy or some other variation of the idea can be viewed as a deviation from an even-age distribution. In population biology we can make very nice predictions of the age distribution in populations based on recruitment to each age class, losses from each age class, and similar factors. I actually applied this using the Leslie Matrix model and showed how the structure of a feeder cub scout pack dramatically controls the longer-term structure of the subsequent boy scout troop. This doesn't alway work perfectly but in cases where the underlying assumptions hold it does work well. In others the model can be modified to make the assumptions fit better. If you have a new troop with mostly young scouts, the recruitment from a pack or other sources must be roughly equivalent for about 4 years in order to attain a reasonably even-aged distribution. This produces stability in the overall numbers of the troop as well as within the age classes. And it emphasizes a point I made in another thread that emphasis and attention to the cub scout pack can have a huge positive effect on the troop. This thumbnail representation glosses over a lot of detail but I thought is was relevant to what Gwd and Narraticong mentioned.

I was wondering when someone would bring this back to life. The thing about the California ruling that I found interesting is that while the court upheld the Proposition, it also preserved the gay marriages that had occurred in the interim. In that sense, it upheld the legality of gay marriage while allowing the people to define what marriage is. I think California is a long way from being finished with this issue and I predict that eventually, the majority will do exactly as Trevorum predicts.

I suggest we let the heat dissipate for a while. Amy, you are discovering that sometimes we respond in an intemperate manner in these threads. FWIW, I don't think you are being selfish and I thank you for the service you are providing as a dedicated volunteer for the boys you have in your den. There is no other person on these threads who can stand in your shoes with the boys you have or in the pack that you are in. There is not one person who is more qualified to make your decision than you are. I was a den leader for years and also cubmaster for years and I really miss the cubs. I hope you can enjoy every moment, even the frustrating ones later on, because these little guys are so full of energy, wonder, and yes, mischief. It will be over far too soon. Edited part: I see that John and I were typing at the same time and I agree with him.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Marykelly, welcome to the forums. Like I mention to all the unit members, boys and adults, who fall into the category of your SM and ASM, I have a personal saying that I think applies and I'll repeat it here.... "'Be Prepared', I always say. H'mmm, you know that would be a GREAT motto for a youth organization. Wow, what a great idea! Be Prepared!" I repeat this every opportunity they give me and I thoroughly enjoy it as they roll their eyes....they try hard to be prepared just to keep from hearing me say it, one - more - time, LOL. And try hard to catch me on something so they can say it to me. Needless to say, everyone knows the motto really well.

Gwd, yes, I guess that by definition, since I'm one of them, I'm a misfit. But then, I knew that back when I was a boy scout. H'mmm, maybe there IS something to that predestination thing.

Gwd, keep in mind that it's really difficult to gauge tone and inflection from a medium like this. I'll offer a general observation. I agree with your statement about the optimal size being whatever the DL or den decides. The pack I led (I was CM for about 6 years) had about 12 dens (+/-, and excluding Tigers) and what I observed was a size that maxed out at 10. At 10 the den leaders were often asking for help, maybe for a new den to take a couple of boys along with new ones. If they had less than 8 they were usually willing to accept another boy. I concluded that about 8 or so was an 'optimal' size from this unscientific but empirical exercise. I also observe that at the time, 9-passenger vans were popular. (and the boys helped destroy at least two of mine, LOL) Nevertheless, I draw no conclusions from that observation. There were short-lived exceptions. One den had 12 and seemed very happy with it. Some of those boys moved away so it slimmed as it entered Webelos. I saw another den with 15 and they stayed that way for several years. They had one DL and FIVE assistants. The parents collectively decided to run it as a single den and I supported that decision. Again, that den no longer exists as the boys all split up into smaller peer groups as they aged. As for the tone of Amy's initial post, when a DL finally came to me for help, they often had been reluctant to add another problem to my plate and had let their frustration build. They were also sometimes shy about admitting the problem in the first place. And sometimes they were anxious about my reaction to the problem. All these things can cause their initial statement of the problem not to be completely objective. I understood this. I suspect Amy is feeling some of these things, maybe more as well. I could be wrong. Edited to add: I agree with John-in-KC's observation of '8' suggested as a good size by B-P. When I was a den leader I had up to 8 in the den and I have to tell you it was a lot of fun...but very difficult to keep up with all of them. We met outdoors for most den meetings and there was usually a tream or lake as well as playground equipment. None of them were 'Stepford' children. More than 8 would have been a much greater challenge and I complained vehemently and daily about it to the CM (me, it turned out for a couple of early years ). (This message has been edited by packsaddle)