packsaddle

No those were jack-booted thugs that we hired from the Democratic Party (they were cheaper than Baptists). Seriously, the ushers did the deed but this was more myth in the mind of a child than reality. In reality, I can't imagine what kind of mischief would have been required before that church ejected a paying member.

Hi Merlyn, Yeah, I knew that. I still prefer the mental image of something that eats Billy goats Gruff. Kind of like....me. Gern, Back when I was still a Presbyterian, we referred to it as being 'churched'. The offending member would essentially be banned from the congregation. The entire church congregation would turn their backs on him and he would be ushered out the door. For some reason, people seemed deathly afraid of having this happen to them. I guess it was the next best thing to 'excommunication' for a protestant....the result of a kind of 'excommunication envy' perhaps.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Is this membership card thing a metaphor? Do we actually have to turn something in or can the unit merely recharter without a member who disagrees with some BSA policy? I ask this because outside of being kicked out (I have no idea what that really means either), I'm not sure of what the process is. For instance, if I suddenly decide not to continue as a volunteer, all I really need to do is inform the CO and they will make sure my name isn't on the charter next time around. Right?

Ed, if someone made the claim that Jesus was gay (and I have heard this claim before), I could not find evidence to the contrary...not that it would matter to me anyway. Gotta be careful, I wouldn't want any shoes thrown at me. Oops, wrong fundamentalists.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Judge Jones, in his finding of fact in the Kitzmiller decision, noted that 'fundamentalism' began in the late 19th century, largely in response to the emergence of evolutionary science. This is also noted in: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Fundamentalism and I found it interesting that some less-'fundamental' Christian flavors prefer to use the term, 'extremist' in place of 'fundamentalist'. Isn't it great how religion brings us all together?

Hal, that can only happen if someone is ignorant or else engaging in an attempt at deception. OK, I'll be fair to Reagan - the botanical definition often does not agree with a nutritionist's definition of a fruit. I think you will agree that what you might savor as 'vegetable soup' is mostly composed of 'fruits' under the strict botanical definition...that being fruit defined as a ripened ovary. Not exactly the most savory definition but scientifically and developmentally accurate. Worse, in the case of a tomato, we are mostly eating placenta tissue. Bon Apptit! OGE, your information is accurate. Unfortunately it is unlikely to have much effect on those disposed to prejudice or homophobia.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

My favorite used to be mangos but there were so many this season they were just being squished into smithereens on the roads and the aroma, while good at first, became a little old after while. So in addition to those really delectable fruits, I also had a fully-ripe pineapple every day. Of course this doesn't count green bananas which are prepared in a manner similar to mashed potatoes. They taste about the same too. Didn't eat much because they weren't in full season yet but breadfruit are also a great substitute for potatoes if prepared correctly. But all in all, I'd rather carefully pick them rather than shake them from trees. NickP412, the parents and boys in this area don't seem to mind. Perhaps if you could give the source of the data behind your survey? Hair color IS a choice. Just ask my daughter.

"I'd chip in, too, that there is a value for boys in learning to form adult relationships with non-family men..." There is risk here too. During my youth, 'non-family men' were the ones who taught me racial hatred, use of tobacco and drugs, unhealthy views on sex, ways to commit crimes, and subjugation of women. It was my father who provided the role model that gave me some perspective on these life-views and religious beliefs. I made the choice about the same time I decided to have two ears.

Yes, I agree. Decline. The time investment will increase and your daughter needs a good supportive father, one that she knows is there for her when she needs him. Mom will be happier too and that really makes this a no-brainer. Stay as ASM.

Welcome to the forums, kcs_hiker. I tell all of the boys that it is perfectly honorable to finish as aFirst Class, Star, or Life scout and I mean it. In some ways, for a person to know they came close and for one reason or another they didn't achieve what they knew they could - is a powerful life lesson. And it is better to learn this at a young age when that lesson can be put to good use for the rest of a life than to learn that lesson in adulthood and perhaps create a career stumbling block - or worse. Yes, it is your regret but remember that the knowledge of that regret might boost you to a better decision later in life when it might be even more important for you or your family. If so, you can feel good about that very important lesson that you learned from scouting.

scoutldr, yeah, you can recognize me easily from all the little circular marks all over my body from being touched with a 10-foot pole.

The SC governor, Mark Sanford, just gave his mea culpa, confessing to having an affair with a woman in Argentina. Her name is not "Appalachian Trail". I guess 'gone backpacking' is a phrase that will be viewed with suspicion from now on. H'mmmm. Backpacking. Why did he have to pick THAT as his cover? Edited part: At first I thought this would clip my wings but then, looking in the mirror, I realized...nope, never happen, not in this lifetime. She won't need to be the least bit suspicious.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Hobcaw had some great suggestions that are among my favorites as well. In addition you should consider the Shining Rock Wilderness area or if you want a regular campground, some of the park campgrounds off the Blue Ridge Parkway. If I read you correctly, you're looking for something a bit cooler at higher altitudes. So it depends on how primitive you want to make it. If you are willing to go really primitive, there are many alternatives along trails that go along cool, refreshing rivers. The Chattooga River trial and the Foothills Trail both some to mind. There are plenty of other alternatives as well. The Bartram Trail, the AT, etc. If you go to Otto, NC and turn off Hwy 441 up to Coweeta Hydrologic Lab, you can take a long gravel road all the way up to the crest of the AT near Albert Mtn. Just off the Coweeta Hydrologic Lab boundary (no camping allowed) there are some grassy fields and clearings that you could set up in. You can get water from a spring near the trail head going up to the Albert Mountain fire tower. Not too far from there, on the AT, there is a trail shelter. Like I said, there are so many possibilities. It is paradise.

Everyone could sleep in a 'mummy' bag...sorry, couldn't resist.

When I take students out on field trips, I often give them lessons on how to tie certain knots (we're in canoes on lakes). And in lecture I sometimes wear the belt for our summer camp. One of them always asks about either the knots or the belt and then the word is out that I'm a troop leader and an Eagle. And THEN, some of the students begin to step forward to tell me they were scouts too. So I add that being an Eagle helps build rapport in my teaching as well.

That was the first thing that ran through my mind as well I've experienced and contributed to this sort of thing many, many times on the trail. Not authorized doesn't necessarily mean prohibited. It means that it's on 'you' to make the best decision. But things certainly have changed. In some respects we're a prudish nation and other respects we're a bunch of libertines. Some visiting dignitaries from Russia visited a few years ago and while touring around, we visited a lake on a hot summer day at one of the state parks. I left to get some cold drinks and when I came back they had shucked off and were in the water. I tell you it wasn't a pretty sight...but I was more worried about getting arrested by law enforcement and having an international incident. People were staring, laughing, pointing, and I hustled those guys out of the water and got clothes on them asap. Things sure are different. As far as the comment about cold water, there's that special depth just a little less than waist deep...... Back when I was a boy we'd go skinny dipping in the creek - knowing full well that the girls were hiding in the brush, peeking at us. There were usually one or two guys who'd strut their stuff up and down the bank. We referred to them as the 'bank walkers'. In retrospect, I would've held them in greater awe if they'd been able to do that AFTER the dip A few years ago, on a trip to Ural Mountains, I was invited to partake of a friend's banya. It was a beautiful structure of logs from the taiga and he was very proud of it. The ante room was small and comfortable. We disrobed there. Then we entered the hot room. The wood stove produced a dry heat and the thermometer read 150 degrees. It was breathtaking. But I could tell that the Russians were testing the two Amerikanskis to see how we did, LOL. What they didn't realize is that being from the South, I was up to it. So we sat around and by the time I started to sweat, they had rivers cascading off them. We took turns laying on a bench, gently beating each other with branches with birch leaves still on that had been dipped in hot water, back AND front. And then we all dashed out the front door, across the court yard and into a pool of icy water that was dug into the ground in the shade of the Dacha. All of the wives were there preparing our meal as we dashed by au natural. That wasn't such a big deal but after hitting that water we had to skulk back to the banya to repeat the experience two more times. Talk about shrinkage! Anyway, after we were done, we entered the third room and actually rinsed off all the sweat and water and then returned to the courtyard wearing towels only to start eating. Here's the good part. While we ate....the women did the same thing. Russian women are breathtakingly beautiful. Mmmmmmmmmmm.

I would strongly advise against it. I have a PayPal account and have some first hand experience with theft of your identity, making fraudulent charges against your PayPal account. PayPal says they will refund fraudulent charges. They do. What they don't tell you is the process for getting the refund. 1) First, you never know when someone will purchase something using your PayPal account until you either review the account or see an email notification of the fraudulent charges. You are the only fraud detection mechanism in place. I luckily saw the charges go through mine within minutes of the action. This did not help much because.... 2) Paypal, even if you notify them immediately, will still take your money. If you have Paypal linked to your bank account (don't do this under ANY circumstance) the funds will be automatically transferred and you probably won't be able to stop it even if you go to your bank. At this point PayPal, in spite of having been notified of fraud, has just transferred your money to the crooks. It is now incumbent on YOU to present your claim of fraudulent payment so that PayPal can investigate. This is the way they dealt with me. 3) Now that you have gone through the PayPal fraudulent claim process, you wait. days. weeks. In my case a legitimate vendor sold their product to a crook using my account. PayPal will give you no information on whether the fraud originated with the vendor or a third party. You will be kept in the dark and you will not know what the investigation is doing, or WHETHER THEY WILL DECIDE TO GIVE YOU YOUR MONEY BACK OR NOT. 4) The waiting period could impact your ability to do business. You will not be able to delete your bank account from PayPal until the claims are resolved and your bank will be reluctant to take any action other than closing the bank account which will further complicate the matter. So you will wait for an indefinite time during which those stolen funds are no longer available. 5) IF you are successful, after a fairly long time you'll have the funds credited to your account. You'll quickly terminate the link to your bank or else you'll quickly terminate your PayPal account. 6) Try to find another way to do business. Take it from someone who's been there, and done that.

I'm pretty tired from a long day and very ready to sleep but I'll send a quick response. Yeah, like Ed I had figured too, that there just wasn't much to discuss. But I wasn't sure so I decided to open this thread as an experiment. I guess Lisabob has asked the only real question so far. I do want to respond to Eamonn quickly and say that there will be plenty enough of claims that we are meddling without actually doing it. If we actually did meddle and got caught, that would be extremely damaging and for what? Read on... Lisa I know I'm way out of my field, especially after listening to the conversations among people around here who really know what they're talking about. The discussion is almost unanimous that this regime is not going to fall. It is almost unanimous that while the election was stolen, it will remain stolen. The uncertainty is associated with how long this unrest will last, where it will lead, and if it intensifies, what the effect of that will be. The consensus is very unsettling...that a really strong and long period of protest, presenting a real challenge to the regime, will actually cause it to harden even more thus delaying or closing some future diplomatic or political options to the geopolitical problems Iran poses. As you recognize, this is a potential lose/lose situation if these discussions are correct in their analysis. This is also underscored by the fact that the only really credible opposition at this time is mobilized by Mousavi. The discussions have not mentioned any of the other opposition leaders. The discussions are sanguine about the prospect that (with respect to the outside world) the difference between Mousavi and Ahmadinejad is not very large. He is also fairly conservative overall. If Mousavi did become installed as president, he would still be the virtual puppet of the theocracy and there is little difference in real terms between his stand toward the outside world than Ahmadinejad (I have no idea if he also denies the Holocaust though). As a policy conundrum: a huge effort to get this opposition leader rightfully elected might not provide much net benefit to the rest of the world. Hence the lose/lose possibility. The discussions eventually concede that there is almost nothing that can be done from the outside anyway, about the election, nuclear weapons, or anything else really, without risking armed conflict. So they wring their hands, stay glued to cell phones and CNN and, like the rest of us, hope for the best for the Iranian people. Footnote, the Iraqi educators are watching and listening to all this in almost complete silence. Tikrit was Saddam's home town and it is majority Sunni on the edge of a Shiite sea. They can stare at the abyss that could occur if Iraq becomes unstable and follows a path like the one Iran took. These guys are highly intelligent, highly educated people. You can practically see the wheels turning. One more footnote, it is embarrassing to see little children sitting in parks here and there reading books. In English. We, as a society, are so smug. I fear we'll pay dearly for it eventually. Edited part: I'll add a personal observation - if the Iranian people, on their own, challenge the regime and get it changed, I support them in their struggle. Such a success could give them a taste of self-determination that eventually could challenge the conservatives and the theocracy itself. That would be very good. Nevertheless, I understand that I'm just a hopeful romantic. (This message has been edited by packsaddle)

OK, just had breakfast, time for an experiment to see if this forum has been officially closed or not. Last night I sat at dinner with the president of the University of Tikrit and some of his deans and listened to a address given by one the US top authorities on Iranian history and politics. He gave a synopsis of the recent history starting with an insider view of the recent 'election'. I thought I'd share a couple of things that you may not have heard. First, he was unequivocal that the election was stolen. And he presented evidence, albeit circumstantial, with one exception. He also described the way it was stolen as cavalier (my term for it). Here's a little of what he said. First, within a couple of hours of the close of the polls, the supreme leader of this theocracy was informed that the early indications were that the opposition had won in a near landslide. The supreme leader, Khamenei, approved this. Within a very short time, the top aids and officials of the opposition were arrested and it was announced, just a little over 2 hours after the polls closed, that Ahmadinejad had won by a margin of 63%. Khamenei approved. This was the direct evidence. The circumstantial evidence comes from this as well. First, there has never been an election in Iran in which up to 140% of registered voters actually turned out. Second, there has never been an election in Iran in which this many people had voted in which the vote count had been announced in even a couple of days, much less 2 or 3 hours. Third, there has never been an election in Iran in which the early margin of victory, 63%, was constant throughout the remaining vote count. And last, there has never been an election in Iran in which it has been possible to certify a final vote count in only 24 hours. The conservatives stole the election. The speaker's opinion was that it is too early in Iran's political life for this kind of opposition to succeed. He predicted that this marks a harder line by Ahmadinejad and his master, the supreme leader. It will be quite something to watch. In questions he brushed aside concerns over nuclear weapons. As I have always thought, Iran will get them and there's nothing anyone can do to stop it. Now I'm curious to see if this forum is still alive. Have a nice day! Edited Part: As Frankenstein said, "It's Alive!"(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Highway guidelines, I think, and not needed for trail riding. And, as I've demonstrated from time to time, trees don't get out of the way no matter how loud you are. For the roadway, however, there is real danger so take all the precautions you can.

Summer solstice. The greatest god of all, Ra, is responsible. Hiking naked on some trails I know that get overgrown with blackberries would be just downright painful.

Hello from Istanbul, On the flight over I had to fill out a medical history form as part of a screening process by the Turkish government. Then, passing through immigration, they took my temperature. I passed and I didn't see anyone quarantined although from all the coughing I heard on the plane I am surprised. They have no sense of humor on this because the first two cases for their country were two Americans. I'm lucky Turkey didn't take DeanRx's advice and close the border to U.S. citizens as a result. Anyway, I think that makes it clear that the USA is to Turkey as Mexico is to the USA. How's THAT for a comparison?! Me, I just found the Iranian Embassy and I'm planning to join the demonstrators to protest their crooked election. I'll probably end up staying a while....OK because the food is just wonderful.

That would be everyone else who used the word in their posts, NOT everyone. By the way, pigs do get chimneys when properly cooked as hickory-smoked barbecue. Yum. Leviticus can go take a flying jump at a rolling doughnut, IMHO.

Ohio scouter gave you really good material to work with. By the way, Idaho Falls is a really great place to do stuff. I've been able to get a flame in 30 seconds using the materials described in the article. If you want to do it in true survival mode, you'll use sinew or leather for the bow and a stone or block of wood for the drill socket. If you use a stone, it helps to pick one that has an indentation and that fits the hand nicely. It also helps to take another stone approximately the same diameter of the drill and use it to make the indentation deeper by 'filing' the indentation with the other stone. This takes a while but you'll appreciate the way the drill does NOT pop out right before you bust a coal. Yucca is by far the best drill material but another light-weight, non-resinous wood (note his preferred list) will also work. Here's another hint: make the drill small in diameter but not so small that it doesn't turn easily. Keep in mind that you are trying to transfer the energy of your muscles to the tip of the drill and that the faster it turns, the faster the friction works to warm the two surfaces of the drill tip and the fire board. Hence, smaller diameter. Larger diameters will turn more easily but not as fast. A smaller diameter makes the drill turn faster and more revolutions with each pass of the bow. It also helps to have a fairly short drill so that it is easier to keep lined up. Don't put too much pressure on it but keep enough pressure that it is building up the blackened 'punk' in which the coal will form. Some animal fat works well for lube on the drill block if you want to avoid graphite. Tinder can be according to his description or some 'punk wood' powder that you get from dry rot, surrounded by dry grasses, etc. You get the idea. Once you have a spark the rest is easy. Best advice: Practice, practice, practice! You'll figure out the best way.

First Ed, "A literacy test for voter is not a bad idea." Back to the bad old days of the '50s when literacy and poll taxes, etc. were used to disenfranchise those of us with 'poor quality protoplasm', as one racist described it. I remember how my grandmother, a retired school teacher, cried in embarrassment as they required her to read a passage from the Bible, as if that meant ANYTHING about her powers of reason. Ed, you need to think about these things more carefully sometimes. Lisa, I am teaching freshmen and sophomores now in addition to seniors. I enjoy displaying a blank map of the world with numbers on each country. I ask the students to write the names of countries as I call out numbers. Very sad. Iraq. China. Russia. Venezuela, Argentina. Sometimes they don't even get the continent. Forget about Africa altogether, they think the Horn of Africa is near the South Pole. I show them the video in which Harvard graduates fresh out of graduation are unable to explain the seasons...and tell them not to feel so bad. My point is that there are far more fundamental deficiencies than not understanding our constitutional framework. Don't even get me started on math.... As for exit exams, they have their strengths and weaknesses. Weak teachers will indeed 'teach to the test' while good ones use the material to craft instruction that goes way beyond. This is always a problem even without the exams. At least the exams establish a minimum standard. From what I've seen, if someone can't pass these exit exams they have much bigger problems than failing to graduate. I am sympathetic to Kudu's statements. As I see the boys in actual classrooms at summer camp, or similarly sitting idly at tables outdoors while a MB counselor lectures to them, I am REALLY sympathetic to Kudu's statements. I try my best to keep the boys in physical activity. But it seems unavoidable that they end up in these boring, sedentary, wastes of time (located strategically close to the trading post where they can OD on sugar and treats.) I'd much rather take them into the mountains for a week on their own and let them determine their own sources of fun, using real scoutcraft, get closer to the wild type.