packsaddle

Yeah, I noticed that too, who would've thought? Pete could hang on for quite a while and looks really good at 90.

Eamonn, I sympathize. I felt the same way when I heard it. I take solace in the fact that there are still some of the others around, Oscar Brand, Pete Seeger, Jean Ritchie, others. They won't be here forever though. I guess we'll have to keep them as memories. By the way, if you're ever interested in songs that you can sing to and have fun but not around anyone else, consider Oscar Brand's bawdy ballads. As for Puff, remember this was the time when Alaska and Hawaii were new states, Nixon was debating Kennedy, and Vietnam was far, far away. It might be a sensational claim for the song to be about pot but I doubt it and tend to side with the author's claim.

Ed, I'm certainly not going to be able to give you a fair answer to your question because I agree with you. But where we all seem to be in agreement about books, I wonder if we would still agree if the subject was videos or the cinema, or political protest or public nudity? The Supreme Court is having to rethink the whole First Amendment because of its ruling on McCain-Feingold and those limits to campaign speech by businesses. It ruled to limit speech and now it is wrestling with the logical outcome with regard to other forms of speech. If you start from speech that nearly everyone finds repugnant and without any redeeming value, it is easy to work backwards from that position to one in which the same exclusionary language applies to a book. Also perhaps we don't see books as such threats anymore because we don't use them as much as we once did - at least in comparison to the internet and television.

Thanks John, for reminding us of that. It just makes the regulation less 'clear'. The white disk they refer to is similar in application to an inexpensive tool that is commonly used on most lakes called a 'Secchi Disk'. This website out of Kent State gives some interesting facts and history of it: http://dipin.kent.edu/secchi.htm It too is employed to measure water clarity. I suggest the standard mentioned (less than one meter of visibility) is a pretty low bar to pass if they intend to migrate to pool-based regulations. I have applied this approach to lakes all over the country and I can tell you that water with a Secchi depth of less than a meter is water that few would want to swim in in the first place. The turbid lakes I mention for the South qualify as clear water by the BSA standard. This is an example of part of the problem with this regulation. The larger problem is that the requirement states a depth of 7 - 10 feet (up to approximately 3 meters for the metrically-challenged) and this is up to three times as deep as the BSA standard for clear water. The problem is that even in BSA-clear water, the object (presumably a person) would not be visible by a long shot. This, along with the fact that a drowning person cannot be depended upon to stay on the surface, makes a confusing situation for a prospective lifeguard. If the test is a test of strength and endurance, the 10-pound anchor on the bottom of a swimming pool is fine. But if it is a test of the ability to save a life, I see problems with the way the regulation is written.

Welcome to the forums! You seem to be asking why BSA does not 'clarify' this requirement by specifying the clarity of the water for the test. You're right, it does seem confusing. First, I sure wish they would revise all requirements to employ the metric system...but that's probably wishful thinking. It also doesn't mention whether the object should be 10 pounds in the water or in the air. If the object is of marginally greater density than water, it might weigh just a few ounces in the water. If they intend this to be a test of the ability to retrieve a body then a full grown person who has sunk might weigh about 10 pounds in the water, in which case the test object should also weigh 10 pounds submerged. But IMHO this test should be performed under the conditions that the lifeguard might expect to encounter. Lakes around here are turbid due to the suspended clays and other particles. A 10-pound object submerged at 10 feet would be very difficult to locate, especially at a distance of 20 yards. But that is realistically what a rescue would have to do in our lakes. So I think it's fair to expect natural conditions. I'm not sure where the time limit comes from but I suppose it was determined empirically. I hope that anyone who passed this in a swimming pool will know the difference and perhaps give it some practice in a turbid lake as well.

Hal, be careful what you say about Iran's president, you need to be prepared to duck a shoe or something. Anyway, check out a documentary film called, "Paperclips". It is a wonderful story of a rural Tennessee school history class and their incredible experience investigating the holocaust. It is a wonderful story and it shows that at least some schools teach it and teach it well.

Hal, you MUST have known that someone with my almost irresistable curiosity would HAVE to look that up. I can only say: gee, thanks a WHOLE lot. Vol, (edited: we were typing at the same time)(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Sure thing, Lisa. As I look over lists of books banned or ones for which attempts have been made, OK I get how some of these would stimulate some sensitivities. But others, like The Chocolate War, I don't get at all. I wonder if people have even read some of the books they object to. I suppose this is just one more in a long list of things I am out of touch with in American society, sigh.

Vol, thanks. She recovered nicely.

Lisa, do you know what the book title was? Nature of the objection? I'm liking the Chocolate War suggestion but I haven't quite decided yet.

"Obama had us all hopping mad at the insurance companies..." Well I guess I'm the only person in the country who he didn't have hopping mad and I'm a little surprised to read that he had that effect on Brent. The only times I've been hopping mad at my health insurance provider is when I have to fill out the forms again...and again...and again because of their vain hope that sooner or later I'll give up. Or when I read to them the precise wording of the policy in order to get treatment for my wife and they realized they had been caught. So they merely refunded us the premium and said take it or leave it. At the time we didn't have the resources to fight further and she had to have treatment immediately. I should have found a junkyard dog of an attorney. There's nothing Obama can say that will further dampen my view of the adversarial relationship between the insurer and the insured.

Nike, how old is your son? we started our children into books by reading to them every night, a chapter or two from stories that didn't scare them. Son went through a R.L. Stine phase and soon we weren't reading enough for him so he learned on his own. Then by the time we got to the Will Hobbs books, we almost never had to lift a finger. For a while he devoured the magazines about videogames. Our attitude was that as long as he was reading, we'd give him some leeway on what he could read. Now he's a little like Scotty on StarTrek, just give him a good engineering manual. My daughter just, one day, started reading. We'd help her a little now and then and read to her to get her interested. But she did the rest. I tried some books on adventure with her. The book, "Two in the Far North" comes to mind. But she didn't catch the fever on those. She was more interested in teen witches and similar topics. So I just enjoyed "Two in the Far North" myself. Again, there's a lot out there that isn't so dreary and depressing. As I looked over the list on the website, most of those books have been the subject of objections. I didn't see that they were banned but I could be wrong.

Thanks, that answered both parts of my question, including whether you considered those students to be doctors from another country. I've noticed the same thing in my field...the highly motivated 'maverick' student is likely to do as well or better than the average 'thoroughbred'. I have a special fondness for the mavericks because they seem to be freer of thought as well as freer from convention. When my wife and I were in graduate school (and she was pregnant with our first child) we shared an office with a Chinese student who, in China, had been an OB-GYN doctor. We used to joke that I could still give my wife a good scare and probably get away with it as long as He Ping was around. I didn't try it though...wouldn't have been a very good idea...probably would not have been around for #2.

Yeah, normalized against the population it might be more evenly distributed. I wonder if the literacy rate has any effect?

Slightly off-topic but Vol, you reminded me about a question that has been in my mind. What do you think about the medical schools based on the Caribbean islands? I have no idea what their quality is like but I do remember that American students on Grenada were of concern during the invasion. And I know also of Ross University. Just curious.

Yay! I always look forward to Banned Books Week (coming up next week). So to get a head start, here's a link to the google map of last year's distribution: http://bannedbooksweek.org/Mapofbookcensorship.html As usual, the most conservative states like Utah, Nevada, NM, etc. were least likely to ban books and the most liberal regions were most active in banning books. I'm still making my selection, so many to choose from. I thought everyone would like to join in.

OGE, you'll appreciate this. My best aw Sxxx moment was actually when I told my son about condoms. He was about 10 years old and we stopped to get fuel on the way to NY, one Christmas, just west of OGE. He and I went into the men's room and he asked me what those special dispensers were on the wall next to the sink. I thought a moment and decided to go ahead and tell him. I will never forget those wide eyes, the look of shock, and his only words, "ohhhhhhh myyyyyyy goddddddd" I still laugh when I think about it.

Hal, that church bulletin is just too funny! Thanks

Carter said, "I think an overwhelming portion of the intensely demonstrated animosity toward President Barack Obama is based on the fact that he is a black man, that he's African American" Narraticong: "Please note that Mr. Carter did not say "some" of the folks opposing the plan are racist, but a "majority" are racist." Did you read something that I missed? If not explain the basis for your statement. Brent, Yes, Cynthia was disastrous, there's no denying that. So what's your point? That the rest of the country is just as wretched as the South? In the past when I saw a pickup full of white men swerve so that they could physically assault a black man on a bicycle, or a black child walking on the side of the road, I suppose my conclusion that their crime was racially motivated did come from a bias - based on seeing similar acts before and hearing their laughter and the vile effluent of their racial slurs. And today when I hear neighbors (flying the confederate flag above the American flag) proclaim, on a Biblical basis, that black people and other minorities of color are inherently inferior, my reaction is not based on any kind of guilt. Rather it is clear to me that racism is alive and well...and submerged under a veil of polite public silence so that they are not obvious. It wasn't long ago that there were billboards at the border of these little towns that warned, "Nxxxxx, don't let the sun set on you in (name of town)" - Recently enough that most of those folks are still alive. Do you think they've changed their beliefs? (Catholics be advised that in the 'minds' of these folks you don't fare very well either) I wish things like the above were matters of history long past but that's just not the case. If you feel that I've somehow accused you, I apologize. I suppose though, to you that would just be another expression of liberal guilt. As far as the South goes, I'll let the actual history speak for itself. That's pretty clear.

(using my best imitation of Ronald Reagan) "There you go again, John-in-KC" It's FLAVOR AID not Kool Aid. Sheesh, I wish people could get this right. Anyway, (everyone needs to sit down here) I agree with Vol_scouter. The Patriot Act should never have been passed.

I'm glad to say that this unit doesn't seem to have a problem with obesity right now, scouts OR leaders. So it's business as usual for us.

I'm curious as to the purpose for which this particular information is going to be used?

Welcome to the forums, WalleyeSM. I'm afraid I can't give you a definitive answer to your question but my guess is 'yes'. Check with your district guy or the council. However, I congratulate you on bringing a really old thread with some old, familiar personalities, back to life. Nice to have you here.

I too, urge return of the thread: just after I respond. I was born and raised in the South. I've heard most of it and seen some of it, 'it' being the illusions of having a personal memory of 'The War', as well as the prejudice, hate, and violence directed at minorities. I know these things because I have personally witnessed them. And I can tell all of you, that anyone who equates the Texas South with the South Carolina South is being delusional. Texas does seem to have a special passion for putting people to death but not with the flair of the deep South. And despite the front-page nature of what happened in Alabama, the beatings, the bombings, the brutality...the epicenter was in South Carolina. There is a new book out entitled, "The Palmetto State: The Making of Modern South Carolina." It is written by Jack Bass and W. Scott Poole. I doubt that there are many states in which nearly the entire white population of whole counties were members of the KKK, not too far from where I grew up. There aren't many places in Boston where white-robed klansmen assaulted county jails, removing prisoners in order to lynch them. I remember that famous ruling by Judge McMillan. I was driving one of those school buses when the order was written...at the age of 16...in the Charlotte-Mecklenburg school system. I lived it. And I can tell you after traveling and living in so many other states in the USA, when it comes to prejudice, The South doesn't have a monopoly on it. But NO ONE does hate and prejudice with the skill, subtlety, and religious fervor of The South.

"Every random nut that wants to say something doesn't necessarily deserve a segment on 60 minutes, or Fox news." Hey, are you trying to say something about forum participants? Look, Wilson was just representing his contituents and exercising his First Amendment rights. So was this guy. I'd rather have them letting off steam through their mouths than have all that stuff just build up pressure until they did something that actually hurt someone.