packsaddle

You're welcome, and remember...there's no such thing as a poisonous snake. They're all quite edible.

Of the two, I would vote for Ft. Benning. I know they used to have a program for scouts but I think a lot of that stuff changed after 9/11. But they do have this. I think it is the same facility that I remember from years ago. I have also listed the web site for the campground and marina. The pdf file has contact numbers for the entire Directorate of Family and Morale, Welfare and Recreation. I'll see if I can find my notes on Gordon. That one is near Augusta, GA. Benning is south of Columbus, GA. (By the way, when I was doing work on Benning, in one day I saw more cottonmouths than during my entire life of slogging through Southern swamps, prior to that day. Just a thought...you probably won't see a thing.) Uchee Creek Army Campground and Marina: (706) 685-3060 http://uchee.benningmwr.com/index.php?pg=generalinfo http://www.benningmwr.com/documents/Phone%20Numbers%20%28Oct%2009%29.pdf(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

I don't know for sure if they have a program that you're looking for but you can probably find out here: Audie L. Murphy Soldier Service Center Building 253, 1st Floor, to the right of the reception desk 55 Pony Soldier Road Fort Stewart (912) 767-9176 0800-1630 Monday-Friday (Weekends as needed, must call ahead) This is the Fort Stewart Army Community Service Outreach Center. Fort Stewart is just below Savannah, GA, a good location for you I think. If they can't give you an answer they'll probably know who can. Good luck. Let me know if you want info for Ft. Benning or Gordon. But I suspect those are out of your way.

Beavah, I owe you a response. Yes, that was mostly aimed at the Cub Scout Pack (for which I have nothing but the fondest of memories) but I also note that the boys in this troop, while 'doing their best' at putting together troop plans, often forget their own upcoming school or other event dates. The parents who attend our committee meetings have often been of great help by providing corrections or dates for which we were unaware (and there is also a university entanglement to keep track of). They boys do a pretty good job of deciding what to do. As far as keeping up with all the potential conflicts and holidays and what not, they're still a work in progress (but that's what we're trying to help with).

Hopefully that will solve the problem. We've confronted this in the past as well. Sadly, even the boys who have 'earned' the Personal Management MB are known to lose/forget/misplace important documents. Now if we could just get the council not to lose/forget/misplace records.

Quick followup: the state of Hawaii has just closed the door for requests for the Obama birth certificate. It is heartening to learn that the 50 or so monthly requests seem to be coming from the same small number of individuals. The lesson is that once you've been turned down, don't keep making the same request and expecting a different outcome. Evidently, these conspiracy guys are now focusing on Obama's social security number. At least they're predictable. Christian Science Monitor article

Eagledad, I guess so. Another set of Jewish parents in this town years ago met with school officials to object to Christian prayers in the classroom. The school had their sons sitting in the hallway during the prayers thereafter. You think their experience hasn't been spread throughout the community? You better believe it. Incidentally, just where is the 'heart' of the Bible belt? I've always wondered where it was.

This unit has always welcomed any parent who wanted to attend the committee meetings and I can't remember a single time when there was a problem from parents sitting in. Sometimes they have useful information such as school event dates that the rest of the committee are unaware of. The only committee meeting that was ever a problem that I can remember over the last (good grief!) 18 years was many years ago when the leadership held a kangaroo court to try to deny a board of review for an eagle candidate and that was also the only closed meeting that I can remember. Yes, we've also had a couple of times where people came to gripe. I'd rather have those things out in the open than festering in gossip. At the meeting, it falls into the category of new business and the meeting chair can control it and sometimes produce a constructive outcome. Those concerned parents have a right to air their concerns and a sincere attempt to hear them sometimes goes a long way toward the solution.

There just seems to be 'no pleasing' everyone when it comes to religion. I am reminded of that wonderful quote. "The purpose of religion isn't to bring people together." Once in a while, in this unit, one of those situations arises with a religious reference (prayer, usually) that only applies to some flavor of Christianity. I have asked the boys who are Jewish or Buddhist (we don't have a Muslim just now) how they feel about it. They just shrug it off, as noted by Skeptic. Most of the time, there is no religious reference whatsoever, partly because no one thinks about it and partly because we understand that something very generic basically isn't very meaningful to anyone. The Buddhists are interesting. I have talked with the parents and they very kindly forgive the "thoughtlessness" of the others (their term). One Jewish parent rolled her eyes and said, "we've come to expect this kind of thing in the Bible Belt"...not exactly the positive reactions one would like. "The purpose of religion isn't to bring people together." Indeed.

No, it is merely something that happened in the Bible Belt and evidently there has been a huge yawn in response, almost as if it is irrelevant or something. The link is to an article about the reversal of status for two gay ELCA pastors, related to the ELCA's New Rule for Pastors. I thought the relevance to the thread title was obvious. I was in error, sorry. Edited Part: In that article I did learn something that I had not understood before...the relationship between the ELCA and the United Church of Christ. I have trouble relating the various flavors of Protestantism. This helped a tiny bit.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

"Isn't the Internet fun? Whatever did we do before it?" Well, some of us had lives.

In case there is some equivocation, there's no such thing as ghosts. Sorry, couldn't resist.

If they want to go camping we let them. Of course the invitation to join the leadership is always thrust upon them as well. But most of the time, after a few 'sweeties' and 'honeys' from the mom to the boys, the boys (including son) seem to keep a safe distance. I get a good laugh from this kind of thing and the moms, they just can't help themselves.

Unless K-12 does things differently from the university (and I suspect they have similar if not the same requirements for confidentiality), grades are confidential, only available to the appropriate faculty, the student, and the student's parents (if the student is a minor).

I think the restaurant idea is a great one. To simplify things, go ahead and read all the guidelines but if you let it happen as a fundraiser for the CO, and the CO is supportive of the pack, you don't need to report a single thing or file any kind of permission form. This unit engages in sales of various food items (BBQ cookouts) at every home football game and we 'sell' parking spaces in the CO parking lot for outrageous prices. Not a single form filed and we rake it in...all in the name of the CO. No one has ever even lifted an eyebrow.

Well, there's this: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126508136

Significant deposit up front. This makes the commitment really mean something to them personally because they have invested in it. This also goes to my view that the program would be strengthened if everyone paid the full freight in the form of fees, rather than going begging through sale of popcorn or FOS. It is the best way to demonstrate the value of the program through a market-based approach. And when someone pays full price, they are much less likely to treat their commitment as a frivolous matter.

Now that we have brought this dead horse back to life to beat it some more...Hi Vicki!! I'm doing my best to think of some more sexist claptrap...I'll get back to you as soon as I do. I repeat the quote, "The purpose of religion isn't to bring people together." Bacchus stated, " The winds of change are working to change our very morals....we do not need to change the Scout Oath, or to make exceptions to individuals, or large groups, who do not want to follow our standards." I puzzled over this at first but now, in light of the discussions on the thread about the LDS church influence over BSA, it makes perfect sense. All that is needed is to substitute "LDS" for "our". So....Anyone know an update to the actual topic of the thread?

I'm still with Engineer61 on this. He does not have to reconcile anything with the scout oath and law because in his family, HIS authority takes priority with respect to the health, education, and well-being of his children. He made decisions that affect every aspect of his and his family's lives in order to achieve goals that he chose. It is up to him to decide whether or not his son's choices are the best choices. Perdidochas has a different personal perspective and he is entitled to that but Perdidochas does not have any authority in this case over another person's son. Perdidochas can express an opinion based on his limited experience and that is fair enough. Engineer61 is not obligated to 'answer' to any of it.

Yeah, the lab partner thing. Both of mine have had that nice experience of shouldering the burden of the whole team in order to protect their own grade (they also better understand the concept of parasitism as a result). I'm squarely with Engineer61 here as well. I'm a great proponent of creative failure. When a boy goofs off and eventually doesn't make Eagle because of it, I always mention to him that this could be one of the best lessons of life - the consequences of our choices. And it's a lesson that doesn't do much damage for future prospects. In the case of school assignments, I think it is best to allow the student to realize the consequences of a poor choice at an earlier age and use the experience as a way to learn how to make better choices. These kinds of lessons are much easier to overcome in life when learned young. By the time they make it to my lab, there isn't much forgiveness ahead for them. And out there in the real world, practically none at all. As for the goodness of girls I can personally attest to THAT fallacy. And like Beavah suggested, perhaps interesting times ahead. I hope you both succeed.

Thanks OGE, for restating the question about local option. THAT was the local option aspect I was commenting on. However, the question seems to remain...only answered by one person who is obviously biased. But at least there is that one answer. Given the absence of responses to the contrary, it is safe to tentatively conclude that 'local option' is local only for LDS units and that LDS limits that option for all non-LDS units through the threat of loss of their involvement if 'local option' IS allowed for other units. I think that is also what BadenP is referring to with regard to the inflated numbers and the importance of money to BSA when deciding these policies. If it IS true that 'local option' is closed for non-LDS units because LDS is able to exercise its clout in the form of funds based on inflated membership numbers, then I agree that the situation is a study in deception and dishonesty. Edited part: I add that while I know of no CO's in the area who have decided not to sponsor units because of BSA policy, I do know of many families who have left or decided not to join because of it. Interesting...this kind of thing would tend to strengthen the grip of LDS on BSA and it would work the same way for any church that managed to dominate the numbers and then exercise that clout to control policy for all faiths. I don't blame LDS any more than I would blame any other faith if they did something similar. The actual responsibility resides with spineless BSA officials whose god is money. What was that verse about "love of money"?(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Bando, if you'll read through all the old threads about the Dale decision and about the BSA policy regarding gays, you'll understand that homophobia is hardly confined or even concentrated in LDS.

Where were the adult leaders during each stage of this saga? How did the angry dad slip into the boys to have that confrontation without the adult leaders' knowledge?

I'm going to pull my chair up beside Engineer61 and Lisa on this, maybe nolesrule as well. First, I will note that as the parent, Engineer61 is THE final word on all this. He knows his son better than anyone here or the teachers for that matter. He has a greater personal investment in the future and well-being of his son as well. And he has more authority. I've been in his shoes with almost exactly the same situation and I offer my encouragement. This semester brought many of the things that have been discussed here to my desk in large quantities. I'm just finishing up a few hundred final grades for students that range from freshmen through working adults seeking graduate degrees. And, as mentioned, a syllabus usually only has dates for major exams and even those are often flexible. I know of no faculty who assign large homework assignments with little or no time to do it. I'm not sure what was in the mind of the teacher in this case. Which brings me back to the thread. This thread is about a middle-school student who is learning how to navigate conflicting responsibilities and interests and I've been there and done that with my own ADD young persons in middle-school. This is where the IEP (or equivalent) is very useful. Parent-teacher conferences with regard to the IEP are very useful and I want to emphasize that at these conferences the PARENT is in charge if the IEP is in place and not being followed. I've been in many of these kinds of meetings and once we have the teacher(s) in the room, it is heartening to see how constructive the meeting can be as a result. Everyone wants to find a solution and guess what, we always did. Lisa is dead-on about many freshmen being unprepared for things as they enter. I'll register a couple of exceptions to this: my students in engineering and the sciences are top notch and they seem very well-prepared (they blow the socks off other disciplines). They get their work in on time and they do it well. Engineer61 perhaps has a different perspective from others because I suspect he falls into the engineer category. It IS a different perspective and I have come to greatly admire the straight-forward pragmatism of it, having worked closely with engineers for most of my professional life. But I keep coming back to the fact that regardless of how WE might do things differently, HE is the final word for his son. And I wish him and his son the best of success.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Jhankins, thanks for confirming your sanity . When it comes to weird stuff people believe and do in the name of religion, it is tough to top the South for examples. Right now, there's a continuing effort in some churches (not to mention a Facebook group) to pray for Obama to die. Good grief! I'm mostly interested in understanding the motivations and intentions behind BSA's decisions and actions in all this. The relationship with LDS provides a glimpse into the decision-making process and the 'character' of the BSA leadership (which to me is almost as mysterious as the weird stuff that I find attached to various faiths). Kind of like studying animal behavior...you have to study what they actually do and try to untangle the mechanisms and motivations. It's not easy but the BSA/LDS relationship provides a fertile area for inquiry. With regard to posts becoming anti-LDS, my observation is that when there are questions, at first they are perceived as questions about a faith. At some indefinite point, the perception can shift that those same questions may seem to be questioning THE faith itself. Primate social behavior is just fascinating!