packsaddle

I guess there's a finite probability that some glacial erratic feature exists around Chicago that I'm unaware of (an infinitely small one) that would qualify for those topographical anomalies....but as for the Nile Delta, I agree. That is supposed to be flat, much like most any other delta. Moreover, I have looked all over the West for the features in Mackenna's Gold, and search as much as I can...I can't find that water body just up from Mt. Rushmore in one of those National Treasure movies or the features in 'Holes' for that matter. Ain't movies great! One of my favorite things I heard coming out of a movie was some person remarking about the first Star Wars movie. This individual was sad that it wasn't more realistic. Ohhhhh Yeahhhh.

While we are digressing, I want to know how Harrison Ford (The Fugitive) did his dive off of Cheoah Dam in the mountains of NC and then made it back to his hospital in practically no time. Show me that kind of topography anywhere near Chicago.

I know that I lost some families immediately after our DE gave a horrendous FOS presentation at a Blue and Gold, in which he intentionally ranted about gays and atheists. Quite a few families just stopped participating and parents in some of them confided to me that it was because they had not previously known about BSA membership policy. That is my experience as a CM. For the troop that I help with now, I think the 'policy' isn't widely 'known' outside the leadership, or else it's like the 'elephant in the room'. A couple of people have asked about the DRP and when they did I explained, as best I could, the reasons for it. Some decline to sign and some don't. I can't speak to their reasons. To me, BSA's approach to all this would be better if they would be completely open and honest about the 'policies'. Make it very explicit up front and make sure EVERYONE knows what it is. A simple statement that homosexuals and atheists are not acceptable is all it would take. As it is, this stuff stays in the background unless there's a headline or something in the news. Most families I've talked with about it would rather not think about this stuff. But once they do, most of them don't like it and some of them leave. There are a few exceptions, though, who indicate their affirmative agreement. But most of them don't last long either...for different reasons. I suspect that the biggest reason for the long-term decline is a combination of competition with other activities and lack of good publicity. I have no idea how to construct better publicity, though. The families we bring in join because of word-of-mouth and, I guess, their familiarity with the leaders. More and more, we tend to shrug off all the BSA National distractions and just do our own thing. FOS has become something we mention briefly and then go on to the next camping trip. Even popcorn is fading fast (to my delight..I hate the stuff). Troop funding is solid and we pretty much do whatever we decide to do. It seems to work a lot better and the boys keep having fun.

Don't know much about it but if it's done well, it could be a heck of a lot of fun. I did marksmanship MB way back when and loved it. Still do. I am a strong advocate for using target shooting whether with rifle or archery...as a way for boys to learn to focus their minds and attention on a problem, especially for those who seem to be ADHD (like me). Two activities helped me to learn how to concentrate and that skill has helped all my life. One activity involved the instant gratification of putting little holes in the center of a target. The other was chess. Since one of those things involves a firearm, my guess is that would be the one boys would like most.

Thanks for the clarification and, ahem, while I hadn't meant it that way...the pass was nice too. Your tent...my deck of cards.

Try me. I'm always available to actual evidence. I'm not in love with the null, I just find it still standing more often. But with regard to intentions, if that is all there ever was, then you're right. Might as well pass on it.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Trevorum, is that bitterness I detect? Regret? Indignance? Wishful thinking? Let's make this a more complete story. To Calico or anyone who advocates that idea about scouting being an agent of social change: Please provide more detail. What was the overall context of life 100 years ago when the scouting movement and BSA were supposed to be agents of social change? Specifically what was supposed to be changed by scouting? What was the situation that BSA was supposed to correct or improve? Child labor? Education? Public Health? Poverty? Social justice? How would scouting achieve these social changes? Was there anything explicit in scouting about what changes were expected? What possible motivations could there have been to resist or stop the kinds of changes that the scouting movement and BSA were supposed to bring? Who would oppose those kinds of changes and why? Just curious. OK, to continue along this line, on the assumption that at least at first, before the 'Barbarians' took scouting over, BSA had some success at achieving these changes. What were the changes? When did they occur? When did the 'Barbarians' stop the changes? Why did people allow them to? Keep in mind that a 'null' hypothesis would predict that regardless of intentions, scouting and BSA had no real influence on any kind of social change. To reject the null, there must be good, documented evidence to support that rejection. In this case it is not good enough for there to have been intentions. If those intentions had no means to be effective then it really doesn't matter that 'Barbarians' took over. There is no scouting influence on social change either way. Don't get me wrong. I really hope you guys can answer these things. But lately I've become fond of the null. It seems to be correct more often than not.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

If some guy wanted to call me cute and make a pass, I'd be flattered. Nice to know SOMEONE felt that way! I'd have to let him down easily but since women have never tended to say anything like that, he'd definitely bring a smile to my day.

I have actually observed extension cords extended hundreds of feet from the nearest bath facility, with adapter in a light fixture, to large fans (and in one case an AC) blowing on the adult scouters in their campsite. Power wasn't supplied at the campsite...the scouters improvised. The camp, on the other hand, did nothing about it. If what I'm reading here is typical, it might be a trend.

Thanks, wife's out of town for a conference, children out of the nest to who-knows-where. Hiked into the Toxaway Gorge yesterday and spent the day collecting and rock-hopping in the river. Slept late (0600) this morning and now am eating bacon!!! Woohooo!! Great Father's Day weekend.

I'm sorry I can't be there for the ceremony. Tell him congratulations for me and to you too. What a great thing for all of you!

The semester from hell is over and I'm back from paradise. Nothing left now but to pester all of us who've been 'left behind', almost like being on "a mission from God". Jake and Elwood would probably approve.

I know of a product called 'Anti-monkey Butt Powder'. Is it the same thing? http://www.antimonkeybutt.com/ Is that rash similar to WBSBI (wet boat seat butt itch)?

Nope, I'm not still thinking about that misguided Galileo affair...THIS is REALLY important. The Catholic Church has finally recognized the divine character of 'The Blues Brothers': http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/37752137/ns/today-entertainment/ "Vatican calls Blues Brothers a Catholic classic" Whew! Time to add this one to the Citizenship-in-the-whatever MB movie list.

I'm curious about the body powder. What does it do? Why have I never needed it (I think)? Is this some sort of 'man cosmetic'? Huh?

Outside of scouting, my teaching involves taking dozends of students into the field at a time, in canoes and larger watercraft. I always ask if they can swim and the non-swimmers are carefully watched. But, like Beavah says, this is on flatwater with up to a dozen canoes on a relatively small lake (100 acres) and no complicating factors. I have one non-swimmer right now and on his first outing a couple of days ago he nearly broke the seat, gripping it so strongly with his hands. By the end of the day, he was relaxed and we were working together nicely. Moreover, he is now taking a strong interest in learning how to swim so he can stop listening to my singing and get into another canoe. I have seen plenty of cases where lifejackets have failed to save people who were not wearing them. If worn properly, on a lake, if there is a fatality it probably won't be the fault of the jacket.

(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Extending that logic, if the volunteers really chipped in they could dump the camp completely, pool their resources, and do everything on their own. What you described is essentially placing the responsibility for a poor product on the customer. This happens in business as well. The businesses who do this often find themselves OUT of business if the market is working like it should.

I wouldn't worry about the Eagle BOR - I suspect your anxiety is unfounded. So if you have the high ground, keep it and forge on ahead in the way that you think is best.

If you decide that 'going rogue' is the best thing for your boys, then that's what you should do. Do what's best for the boys in your unit first. And you and the other parents are best qualified to determine what 'best' is.

Shortridge writes, "I like the free-market idea in Scouting to a certain limit. At some point a council needs to have a guaranteed base of income to keep camps and basic operations running. That's what fundraising is supposed to provide for - or so I'd always thought. Personally, I would like to have it spelled out exactly how much a particular program or camp costs. Now, when a parent pays for summer camp, he or she is under the assumption that that fee covers everything. But it doesn't - it can't. Increasing the fees to cover all expenses would result in huge sticker shock - but also educate a heck of a lot of parents and leaders." ..to a certain limit At least that's a start in the 'right' direction. And I admit that I'm biased in thinking that 'education' is always a good thing. If you compare BSA to corporations who engage in the free market, you'll find that they also have baseline salary and infrastructure needs that they must fund. The successful ones have superior products and earn our trust and loyalty by providing a good product for what we decide is a fair price. The others...OK they get obscene government bailouts if they're too big to fail or some such nonsense that our children have been saddled with. BSA could work the same way as a corporation in the market economy but, as you suggest, somewhere along the lines the real costs of providing the product would have to be taken into account and 'education' would soon follow. I know there are plenty of camps that are non-profit and which operate strictly on income from sales of their excellent products. This is possible for BSA as well. It has been my observation that 1) people who must pay the full cost of a product tend to appreciate the value of the product more, and 2) they tend to demand a better product if they think they've paid too much. Good for them on both counts! By 'hiding' the real costs of summer camp and other things in the program, the customers are susceptible to the 'something-for-nothing' mentality and not only appreciate the product less as a result, they adopt an ethic that is counterproductive in the real world - the expectation of more handouts in the future (the welfare society). If the issue is one of funding underprivileged boys, then THAT is where the donations should go. But that is not the way it works now. I admit that a change to a market approach would really open some eyes. Good! I suggested the comparison to political systems (they're really economic systems) because the analogy is thought-provoking. The irony that I mentioned, however, is very real, at least to me.

I'm going to plug my idea here again. There would be less need to worry about refunds if all this was fee-based and market forces were allowed to act on programs in the way that free markets are supposed to operate. This is not the case now because the central governing body already has most of the funding in hand from FOS and fundraisers and they can dish out whatever product they see fit, and we can take it or leave it. This is a system in which we give (donate) to the collective (organization) according to our ability and receive (get subsidies) according to our needs (as seen fit by the central authority). Sound familiar? If the vendors had to depend on direct fees for products (services), then there would be incentive to provide better products (services) or else they could kiss the fees goodbye and get out-competed by other vendors with better products. This market-based approach takes control away from the strong central governing body and puts more control in the hands of the customers (parents) who really are best-able to decide what is best for their sons. This is the essence of the free market and the American economic system and it ought to be good enough for scouting as well. See the difference? In a market-based system, the central governing body would still be free to beg for handouts. But if the production depended on the fees from the purchase of those products then the market would be able to work its magic. The customers (the families) would benefit from improved products and the organization would benefit by becoming more efficient (removal of deadwood and dead weight) and the entire system would evolve toward greater benefit to the boys. I have long been mystified by an organization that seems to embrace so many traditional conservative values, yet organized and operated more like the Soviet system. Another irony for the collection.

NJCubscouter, in case you're reading this you should probably stop now. As Rush Limbaugh has said in the past, "It's all about money." You guys are justified in your feelings and I agree. And money, or denial of it, really is a best way to get the message across. As for fundraisers and permits, my experience has been...don't bother to ask for a permit. If your unit needs new tents, do your fundraiser and most likely they'll just make noise, not much else, and probably not even that. If they do make noise, apologize or just shrug. Better yet, offer to have an open forum to air all the grievances in front of everyone. It might be an opportunity for a constructive conversation for all of the units to participate in. But the most important objective is to benefit the boys in your unit. There are out of council camps and plenty of other high adventure opportunities out there if the product you are receiving doesn't meet your expectations. As the 'customers' you have the control in the form of the money spigot. If you don't like the product and the vendor is not listening, turn off the spigot or at least spend your funds in ways that directly benefit your boys and your units.

Dreaded double-post, sorry(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

So there it is...the choice between a capitalist approach and a communistic approach.