packsaddle

JoeBob, that sounds like a great trip - it makes me feel good just knowing how good it will be for all of you. Tell your daughter to leave a few for someone else to catch...and, ahem, that the nothing is likely to bite using her brother as bait - but I know she'd enjoy trying, LOL.

SMT224, that's a great example. My students get tired of hearing me say to them that what they learn in class gives them a false sense of confidence...that they won't know how well they learned the stuff until they get out and DO it for real. I lead them to water...sometimes they drink.

Hobcaw, if you're ever up my way, let me know and I'll take you into the Jocassee Gorges. This is perfect weather for it. Paradise!

I agree with the comment about having the older boys teach the younger ones. I have found that the ultimate test of one's understanding and 'knowledge' of something...is to try to teach it. The expectation that they should know these things is just fine...as long as that expectation is tempered by an appreciation for the reality that we all tend to forget things we don't use very often. At least that's the way it worked for me and differential equations.

Just a quick reiteration of things I've already written elsewhere: Daughters often want to do boy scout kinds of things just as much (or more) than boys do. My advice is not to wait for venturing. Go ahead and invest the time and give them these experiences even if there isn't a 'program' out there for them. Do it on your own...just think: no training, no G2SS, no age limits, just whatever you and her decide you want to try. Invite sons along or just make it father and daughter. I am speaking from experience. I almost missed it and I regret that I didn't get advice like this years before. But we grabbed what we could...wild caving, rock climbing (she's like a spider on the rocks), backpacking, whitewater, reef diving, and our marathon around-the-continent camping trip. I hope that you and your daughters can have even a small fraction of what grew between us - it's that good.

Wisconsin? Maybe they really, REALLY like cheese. Seriously, it's cooler (thermally) up there right now. And there's some really good fishing. But it could be that there's another trip already planned and he's piggybacking on that one. I used to do this as well...flying them out to meet me in Oregon or Utah, lots of possibilities. However, I agree with you about our area. The Southern Appalachians, the coast and barrier islands, all within reasonable distances. Except for that pimple on the planet (Atlanta) there's a lot to be considered right in our own backyard. But I suspect he knows this already and has good reasons for Wisconsin. See ya in the new thread....

Yep, she's ready. That's a great segment by the way. If the weather's good, tell her to spend the night on top of Blood Mtn - shouldn't be any thunderstorms over spring break. My advice...don't wait until she's 14. Take the time to go while the spirit is right. I almost missed it myself and I regret not striking out sooner. As it is we camped around the continent for 6 weeks a few years back and it is a lifetime of wonderful memories. Don't delay. Grab all you can, it'll be over way too soon.

Kahuna, that sounds completely honest and plausible, not to mention hilarious. It's kind of like the best reason I ever heard to explain why people go to graduate school...they can't help themselves.

Basementdweller, my daughter had the same feelings. She begged me to let her do the stuff my son was doing instead of the boring stuff she was doing in GS. And she would have been better at it than any of the boys if scouting had been coed. So I took her camping and backpacking and rock climbing, etc, separately. She's far better in the outdoors than most of the men I know in scouting. She's both competent and confident...comfortable in any kind of weather and resourceful to find solutions when things don't go well. But that's water under the bridge now, finishing up at college and about to get on with her life. But it would have been really good.

Heck, don't hold back - that's why I have all those little circular marks all over me...women daring each other to touch me with a 10-foot pole.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

The last 5K event had about 35 competitors with staggered starts (yes, 35 boats, canoes mostly). The numbers increase for the shorter distances. For something as short as a half mile, there might be just a series of strategically-placed boats. With over a hundred competitors, did they 'run' in heats, I hope? Vicki, thanks. I'll apologize to the males and note that women seem more often to make their poor choices in romance. The Perry Mason rule: Men kill for money while women kill for love. We had a lead secretary who maintained a Teutonic grip on the petty cash account (this is for a federal agency office). She kept tight control and accounting for anything and everything we did...but after a heartbreaking divorce, she threw her life away and absconded with the petty cash (just a few $thousand) and was later caught trying to make it into Canada with the sleazy guy she'd fallen for. Women just seem to WANT to believe....

Hi Vicki! Actually with regard to swim competitions, EVERY open water meet I have assisted had a watercraft alongside EVERY individual competitor for the long courses (and I've had to take a few aboard who couldn't make the distance). The shorter open-water competitions had lanes designated and safety boats were stationed at strategic locations just in case. The shorter ones only lasted a few minutes compared to hours for the long course competitions. But I basically agree with Beavah with regard to institutional requirements and sensible practice in our private lives. When this unit is on the water we adhere to SSD and SA. But personally, I often go it alone in my 'yak, even down the Chattooga (carefully listening for banjos) and other rivers in this region. I am a scouter and I suppose that someday I could be the subject of one of these threads but I know the risks and I am experienced enough to minimize those risks. It's similar to solo backpacking. The risks are there. We weigh them against the benefits and make a choice...a personal one. Recently a young woman died on a local river after she was swept over a very high waterfall (over 100 feet high). She knew the waterfall was just downstream. She made a poor choice. It's over for her. But as Beavah says, experience is the kind of understanding that helps us avoid those poor choices. Having a survived a few poor choices myself, I have a tremendous appreciation of the potential consequences and I avoid those choices now. ....well most of the time. The temptation to tickle the tail of the dragon is still there and I admit...it is just so much fun. It's a guy thing, Vicki. I'm doing my best to provide some sexist claptrap. How am I doin?

Eeeeeuuuuuuwwwwww!

So what is the motivation for pursuing a career in scouting? A young man completes a high school diploma and gets some kind of post-HS degree. He can choose the military or medicine or law or business or sports or any large number of trades and professions, etc, etc. Why go for scouting? I know the motivations for many other careers but I can't quite put my finger on it for scouting. It isn't the money. It isn't the easy duties. It isn't the babes. Heck, those are the reasons people become college faculty. So someone help me out with regard to careers in scouting.

If only we paid more serious attention to those historical documents and the wisdom they contain.

Hey!!! I just figured out the perfect solution. It's...oops, my Droid just finished downloading a movie I've been dying to watch, I'll get back to ya.....

NJ, And don't forget the communicators. I suspect we're still vulnerable to invasion by the Sigma Lotians led by Bela Okmyx (or maybe his grandson)...since that communicator was never recovered. My favorite lines from that one - Kirk had just driven the crew in a cab with a manual transmission: Spock, "Captain, you are an excellent starship commander, but as a taxi driver you leave much to be desired." Kirk, "It was that bad?" I'm still hoping for a sequel. Sigh

LIBob, as in the greatest Star Trek episode ever (The Menagerie).

"I could go on but the point is I am skeptical that the declince in CS enrollment is caused by anything in Irvington TX and I suspect it has to do with family life in the age of Gameboy." From a Telosian viewpoint, they have their illusions and you have yours. You want theirs to be as pleasant.

jhankins and others who are frustrated, Don't let this get too far under your skin. The boys are still there and they will benefit from your leadership. You can turn your back to the rest. Let's face it. You and the rest of us are serfs. The top leadership in BSA is the Supreme Soviet. Alexander Nevsky isn't going to save the day. Might as well focus on what's really important and ignore the BS. (note: this was for analogy only and is far from any kind of historical accuracy) The point is, what you want isn't going to happen. So the best response is to change what you want...to working with the boys and the unit. Ignore all the rest. Or as my coffee mug says: Don't Let the Turkeys Get You Down. (not that there is anything wrong with being a turkey)

OK, I think most of us are in agreement with regard to the institutional structure. What changes would be needed and who would make them? What is the impediment to change?

What incentive is there for 'National' to change anything...IF they are continuing to collect their salaries and raises? Within the organization they ARE absolute power for policy and planning. There is no way to impose anything on them, short of a 'strike' by the volunteers (unlikely) or a complete loss of customers (also unlikely). Yes, the customer base may be declining. The same equivocal arguments made in this thread for factors that may contribute to this trend also provide convenient rationalizations for those in BSA policy and planning as to why BSA policy and planning is not at fault. A council or district here or there may have to be consolidated. A summer camp may have to be closed and sold. But the pros who are left will remain circled around their incomes. The worst that can happen is that BSA may decline to the point where it has a very small niche within youth organizations...but a niche large enough to support those aforementioned salaries. And with LDS support and a Congressional Charter. Volunteers can take credit at the unit level for 'fluffing the pillows' for those salaried employees. Volunteers can congratulate themselves for keeping things from getting worse, perhaps. They will get no such praise from anyone else. And they are unlikely to be 'given' any power from those who have it now and as well have no reason to give it up.

TwoCub, while I am glad you are attempting to see this in market terms, and while I do agree that the customers are the boys and their families, in a corporation the stockholders not only invest their wealth in a way that they hope will either retain or enhance that wealth, they also take on the ownership and risks, proportional to those investments. While I am a strong advocate of the application of a market approach to the organization and market forces to its operation, I can't see the application of the analogy to BSA as it is currently structured. The investment by the volunteers confers neither control nor ownership. But I do appreciate the idealistic way that we volunteers dedicate our lives and the idealistic expectations we seem to maintain as well. Edited part: emb021, the way that the volunteers could exercise control would require the volunteers to be organized so that they could speak with a collective voice. The only leverage such a collective voice could have is the prospect of withheld service. Unlikely, I suspect, to happen.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Sherminator, are you familiar with the term 'cannon-fodder'? I might put the DE's at the lower work-area level but we volunteers are expendable. We can be terminated at any time for any reason...or no reason. The trend of volunteerism that Beavah notes insures that there will be an ample supply of replacements. When I was with private industry, I was told that "we are paid according to what we contribute". Those words have served me well and I interpret them in a way that when we are not paid for a service, that service is unlikely to be valued very highly. There is no reason that advice from us would be valued any higher. I would add that this might be more likely the view by persons whose jobs are oriented around money...and the getting of it. I am with you on the wishful-thinking side. On the reality side, I fear that evidence tends to go against us.

What I am seeing in this discussion is a group of dedicated adult leaders who sincerely care, and by this I mean intensely care, about youth and the program that they have volunteered to lead. These volunteers might not agree on everything about the program and they sure don't agree with regard to politics...but they agree about the youth and they are willing to give a huge amount of time out of their lives to serve. I am also seeing concern about demographics and a sense of future of the program that goes beyond the 'now' and beyond boys that are in the program at this time. These volunteers care about the program as well as the youth and they are looking to the future. Everything about this is good. I see the volunteers thinking about ways to boost membership. I see them doing things to benefit the program as well as their units, with a focus on the future. So with Sherminator's first suggestion in mind I have to ask: Which large organizations are there in this country in which the top leadership seriously engages those at the bottom, especially if they are volunteers, in matters of long-term policy and planning?